|
|
| Welcome to the Mercedes 190 forum Welcome to the Mercedes 190 owners forum, the place to be for all owners and lovers of the Mercedes 190E, 190 and 190D cars. Including Cosworth (2.3 16v and 2.5 16v), EVO 1 and EVO 2 models. Modified and concourse, track cars and daily drivers, all are welcome. This free UK based club was started back in November 2005 to serve the w201 community and now has over 4000 members from all around the world and 340,000 + posts. The members welcome you and encourage you to stay a while and have a look around. We offer you friendly chat and access to some very useful information as well as tutorials with photos and videos for many common repair and maintenance jobs. Whatever your needs there is a good chance you will be able to find what your looking for. Such as our Mercedes 190 buyers guide Sign up to gain access to all areas including for sale / classified areas and country wide meetings and events. Many forum features and sections are only available once you sign up. Join our us at mercedes190.co.uk! If you're already a member please log in to your account: |
| ColdFlow 350, pour point additive for veg oil | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Wed Oct 7, 2009 10:08 pm (208 Views) | |
| kentronix | Wed Oct 7, 2009 10:08 pm Post #1 |
Admin
|
I have been looking into pour point additives recently, after reading up about them all I have settled on Coldflow350. The only dissadvantage I can see of this one over the others is that mixing may be hard and it cant be done cold (outside temps). It seems it should be ok at room temp. There is a possible filter issue although I am not 100% sure its an issue, I will update when I get the facts from the manufacturer. To sum up, you stick about 25ml into a 10 litre batch, shake for 20-30 minutes, then your filters wont plug until much lower temps. It doesnt alter the viscosity so it wont help with the other cold start issues but they can be sorted with other easy ways. I am currently bringing it down to temp in the freezer (along with standard untreated veg) then I will time it going through a filter to see what difference its made. At this dilution rate it costs about 5p a litre, but you only need it for a couple of months when its really cold.  The science bit :- Waxing/plugging is where little waxy crystals form in the veg when it gets cold. Various veg oil types are -8 to -1 degrees C or so I think. First it hits the cloud point which is where the little crystals form, it goes cloudy or milky. It still passes through the cars filters and causes no problems. Then those crystals grow and hit the plugging point which is when the size of the crystals clogs the filters. This product seems to work by stopping the crystals from combining up to form larger crystals, or growing above a certain size. Great idea, but will it work ? I will of course let you know of my findings  I am slightly concerned that the small particles in wvo will give the crystals a starting point to grow so for now just testing with svo. |
 |
 
|
| nezamr | Wed Oct 7, 2009 10:38 pm Post #2 |
Member
  ![]](http://209.85.122.89/static/1/pip_r.png)
|
last year when there was snow, the 190d started on 100% wvo no problem! A little lumpy but with a bit of revving soon warmed up! Hopefully if we get to plug all the air leaks this sunday and then.................NO PROBLEMS ALLLLL WINTER! |
|
|
| kentronix | Wed Oct 7, 2009 10:51 pm Post #3 |
|
Admin
|
Me too nez but there is a risk. If the car is left cold in temps of minus 5 or so there is a high risk of the filters getting clogged or partially clogged and not handling high revs for long periods. I have the mothercare upgrade on mine so the canister filter isnt such a problem, its more the inline filter and strainer. It will also give us the option of using other oils that we currently cant due to the relatively high waxing point. I think groundnut oil (peanut oil) is one of those oils. Aparently lots of chippies use it because it doesnt smell anywhere near as much. It waxes way too high though. |
|
|
|
| nezamr | Wed Oct 7, 2009 11:06 pm Post #4 |
|
Member
|
i've never come accross peanut oil! During winter a lot of places are desperate to get rid of their oil as a lot of people stop using wvo and go back to diesel in winter! I hope we dont get below 0c this winter! |
|
|
|
| stwat | Wed Oct 7, 2009 11:11 pm Post #5 |
Moderator
|
So what did Rudolf do all those years ago with his peanut oil powered engines? |
|
|
|
| nezamr | Wed Oct 7, 2009 11:28 pm Post #6 |
|
Member
|
hibernate?  
|
|
|
|
| stwat | Wed Oct 7, 2009 11:53 pm Post #7 |
|
Moderator
|
|
|
|
|
| kentronix | Thu Oct 8, 2009 7:38 am Post #8 |
|
Admin
|
Not sure stu, he may not have had filters in the engines, or he may have stayed in bed for 2 months. |
|
|
|
| EddieJT | Thu Oct 8, 2009 7:40 am Post #9 |
|
Member
|
I still haven't had a chance to investigate, but doesn't the standard fuel heater heat the fuel (oil) before it hits either filter? |
|
|
|
| Martrider | Thu Oct 8, 2009 7:44 am Post #10 |
Longest build time in history?
|
Diesel is much harder to light by naked flame until it bought up nearer to flashpoint, but i can be done. But at the same time, petrol (albeit vapour) is flammable all the time. Is there a safe way you can use a thermostat sensor in the diesel tank, and an old electrical heated seat element to cover the tank so that only under very very low temps does it need to switch on and keep the oil at a desired temp? Might need a bit of electronically controlled jiggery pokery but you seem to like that. Just a step up from the mothercare mod I guess. Or you could just use diesel.
|
|
|
|
| kentronix | Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:19 am Post #11 |
|
Admin
|
The fuel heat exchanger isnt particularly efficient on the mercs. They make a bit of difference but not as much as a stand alone plate exchanger. The problem is though when your starting from cold. The coolant is cold and therefore the exchanger doesnt heat the fuel at all. For me this is about avoiding the car not starting on cold winter morns when the fuel may be waxed along the lines, in the filter, and the tank itself. You can get electric heaters mart, in order to heat a full tank up to a reasonable temp you need a hell of a lot of leccy power, plus you need to do all the fuel lines really as well or waxed fuel will instantly block your filter until you can get enough heat into it. I experimented with heated blankets around the tank but you really need lots of power and time to bring 70 litres of liquid up by a possible 5 degrees or so. Shoving £3.50s worth of additive in with each tankfull seems a better option than heating your tank and lines. Incidentally, melting the wax crystals takes a higher temp than it takes to create them in the first place. My fridge/freezer tests should hopefully get me some info but it seems better to avoid them forming rather than try to melt them afterwards. Of course this may not work at all Who knows
|
|
|
|
| EddieJT | Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:32 am Post #12 |
|
Member
|
Do the Mercs have lift pumps as standard? The 306 doesn't, so I fitted an aftermarket Facet one, and it made a massive difference; it enables me to run on 100% WVO whereas before given the same seasonal conditions I would have had to blend with a little petrol. Mind you, the Merc has a superior injection pump than the Pug so it may not benefit so much from a lift pump. |
|
|
|
| kentronix | Thu Oct 8, 2009 10:33 am Post #13 |
|
Admin
|
They do indeed, the flow from tank to front goes :- Tank > strainer > lines to front of car > prefilter > fuel thermostat > heat exchanger > lift pump > canister filter > Injection pump > injectors When the fuel isnt cold it stops getting fed around the heat exchanger circuit (by the fuel thermostat). The excess fuel coming out of the injectors is fed across the top of the canister filter and then back to the tank. This is how the system self primes. Air in the fuel rises to the top of the canister and back to the tank rather than on to the injector pump. It works really well, the engine can actually run ok with up to about 1/4 of the mix being air !!! |
|
|
|
| EddieJT | Thu Oct 8, 2009 11:39 am Post #14 |
|
Member
|
Oh very interesting. That's a clever design as air ingress and priming is a major problem in the Pugs when running on WVO. |
|
|
|
| Benzsc1 | Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:30 pm Post #15 |
Member
|
Guys I was thinking of starting to run the LT35 on Veg using a stright percentage mix to begin with no pre heating approx 20% veg to normal derv do we think thatn would work the truck is an 86 so definitely no issue with common rail technology. I know there are plenty of web sites and threads etc but the consistency of the fuel seems to be the factor that most pumps and engines get hung up on so maybe as Kenny has said using an additive may be an option. Just don't really want to end up stripping the seals in the pump or killing it another way. |
|
|
|
| nezamr | Thu Oct 8, 2009 3:47 pm Post #16 |
|
Member
|
Is the truck worth a lot? If so, don't bother with veggie oil!! I save around £2k per year running on wvo (more than the car is worth!) so it's worth it for me. |
|
|
|
| kentronix | Thu Oct 8, 2009 5:14 pm Post #17 |
|
Admin
|
The coldflow option doesnt effect the viscocity, only the plugging temp. At 20% your fine though, as long as you try to make sure its reasonably well mixed with the derv (or paraffin) The only problem I foresee at 20% is the rubber seals. |
|
|
|
| EddieJT | Thu Oct 8, 2009 5:55 pm Post #18 |
|
Member
|
Or fit a twin tank system where you start and purge on diesel. Then you can safely run 100% WVO in a normally non-veg tolerant injection pump. |
|
|
|
| Benzsc1 | Fri Oct 9, 2009 10:51 am Post #19 |
|
Member
|
I am due to deliver a car to derby so won't try it for that trip once she is back on local ground might just try a 10% mix The truck is worth alot to me but monetary value a couple of grand maybe three and she is old so as I have heard are perfect candidates?? |
|
|
|
| chrismatheou | Fri Oct 9, 2009 10:54 am Post #20 |
Enthusiast
|
For £3 a tank it sounds like fantastic stuff for the winter months but does mixing a tank full with say £5 worth of diesel have the same effect and stop the crystals forming? |
|
|
|
| EddieJT | Fri Oct 9, 2009 4:46 pm Post #21 |
|
Member
|
If you're gonna mix £5 pounds of anything then you wanna use petrol. It is a FAR better thinner than diesel is. Can't remember the exact ratio now, but I think 1ltr of petrol, will thin as effectively as 4ltrs of diesel. If these engines were designed to run best on fuel with the same viscosity as diesel, then no amount of diesel blending with VO is ever gonna get you down to the same viscosity as straight diesel. Just 1% of WVO in diesel will increase its viscosity to that above diesel- a bit of an extreme example but you get what I mean. Now petrol on the other hand is much less viscous than diesel, so mixing petrol with WVO, at some point, will get you to the same viscosity as diesel. All this is a bit academic though, as the Mercs can easily run on a fuel with a higher viscosity than diesel anyway, but that is the theory behind it. Before I fitted a lift pump, in winter I would run 10% petrol, 90% WVO in the 306. You don't want to exceed 10% petrol though really as you'll lose noticeable power and risk vapour lock if you have a heat exchanger. When it was snowing I was on 10% diesel, 10% petrol, 80% WVO. And of course you've paid the duty on petrol so everything is legal and above board.............. as tempting as using paraffin is of course 
Edited by EddieJT, Fri Oct 9, 2009 4:53 pm.
|
|
|
|
| kentronix | Fri Oct 9, 2009 5:50 pm Post #22 |
|
Admin
|
Well, my results are in and I am totally BLOWN AWAY !!!!! I know many of us (me included) have driven pretty close to the edge temp wise but once you go over it you have no chance of going anywhere unless you heat up all your lines and tank. Incidentally the point at which crystals melt is higher than the temp they form at so you have to heat them quite a bit. Its nice to know where that line is and see the actual change in fuel. So, the first pour is the treated veg (25ml in a 10litre batch). Second 'pour' is the untreated veg. Both were at negative 4 degrees, which is a reasonably possible temperature in this country.  As far as I am concerned this is all I need but I will do a few more tests at different temps. Both fuels were fine and un clouded at zero. Both were solid at -15. I think the point where the normal starts to go pretty gloopy is about -2 to -3. This is shop bought KTC 'modified soya' vegetable oil. I may do more tests at slightly lower concentrations, and perhaps with 10% paraffin or petrol. If people are interested to see ? |
|
|
|
| Rich27 | Fri Oct 9, 2009 5:54 pm Post #23 |
If it has tits or an engine it will be trouble
|
Interesting results kenny. Can you do one with 5% Petrol added? I was wondering what effect petrol would have on veg oil? |
|
|
|
| kentronix | Fri Oct 9, 2009 6:03 pm Post #24 |
|
Admin
|
I will do, I think I have a bit of petrol in my beasts spare bottle to try with. If anyone wants a link to where I got this stuff in litre amounts please pm me. I am not being secretive, I will explain when I reply. |
|
|
|
| EddieJT | Fri Oct 9, 2009 8:30 pm Post #25 |
|
Member
|
Great experiment Ken. Would be good to see it done again with 5% diesel and petrol. Another good test would be to drop a ball bearing into a tall vessel of the stuff and time how long it takes to fall to the bottom. Would give you good viscosity resutls to directly compare with each blend, and at different temperatures. |
|
|
|
| kentronix | Fri Oct 9, 2009 10:53 pm Post #26 |
|
Admin
|
Good idea eddie, I have one of those viscocity cone things used for paint which I did plan to use but given this technically shouldnt be effecting the viscocity I wanted to do the plugging point test. Which is where you pass it through a 45micron filter and time it. Even a very thni free flowing fluid will pass slowly through a filter if it contains lots of particles above the filters micron size. I was going to use coffee filters but to be honest the difference was so startlingly different I felt no need. In my opinion, at minus 4, normal veg will plug a canister and treated probably wont. More results will come. Getting lower than -4 is a tad hard so most will be based on that figure. |
|
|
|
| kentronix | Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:08 am Post #27 |
|
Admin
|
I have heard back from the coldflow manufacturers with some clarification. The product can be added at room temps and it is in fact the ideal temp. The reason the website states higher is to ensure crystals havent already formed in the veg and the fuel has warmed since. Its vital they havent formed or the product wont work. I know my experiment proved this but its good to hear it from the manufacturers. They also cleared up the filtering info. Rumours are rife about this product and its ability to pass through filters. People seem to think it will get stuck. So any fuel passed through a car filter and then back to the tank as overflow will not contain the product and wont be protected. This is not true. Coldflow's particle size is between 1 and 2 microns. It will pass straight through a 2 micron filter, but not a 1 micron. All canister filters are above 5 micron, normally around 10-12 micron. So if you filter to 1 micron at home you will need to add coldflow after that stage. For all other setups its fine. More experiments will follow. |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Alternative Fuels · Next Topic » |
9:42 PM Nov 26
