Need serious suggestions for brake upgrade

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Need serious suggestions for brake upgrade; Thinking Non-Merc and cheap consumables
Topic Started: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:54 am (346 Views)
Martrider	Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:54 am Post #1
Longest build time in history? Posts: 1,530 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: November 2, 2005	Hi all, I have been doing some research and there are obviously a million different brake applications out there. I was wondering if, during non-merc ownership that anybody had come across a particularly good brake set up (calipers, ideally 4-pot) that could be retro fitted onto 16v hubs. I could go down the Porsche route as there seems to be a lot on sale for reasonable money, (even 4-pots from the rear of a GT3 for example) but how much would it involve to fit other than fabbing some mounting brackets and finding a set of discs to match. Am I under the right understanding that I have two ways i could go about matching these? Either by going for custom bells and floating discs (of which there are loads to choose from) - or - just trying to match a set of Merc discs (which I could theoretically get EBC TGD versions or the like). I am ideally looking for a set-up of four pots on the front, but i think my plan for the W124 320-TE rear discs and calipers on the back will be enough. I just don't want to have to spend Ł400 every time I need to change the front discs and pads every time I go to a couple of track days. So far I have been looking at Mitsu Evo brakes from a few models, and STI/WRX but I am not convinced that they will be much of an upgrade. Plus discs and pads are very expensive in comparison. Also looked at some of the Nissan stuff from GTI-Rs and various Skylines but again seems to be uber expensive. There must be a set that I haven't thought of. P.S, There are some very nice Audi S3, TVR Sagaris Alcon and Aston Martin Vanquish brakes on Ebay right now! But far too expensive. Or...... Should i just go for a set of Hi-Spec, Compbrake or something similar and bite the bullet? Argh!!!! (Not that i have the money at the moment, i just need to know what to be keeping an eye out for).



Nath_XPR	Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:57 am Post #2
Nordschleife Taxi Posts: 936 Group: Members Member #2,493 Joined: April 7, 2008	Why not go for the EVO2 4 pot set up?



MBidiot	Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:17 pm Post #3
MBidiot Posts: 455 Group: Members Member #3,829 Joined: February 11, 2009	It's hard to beat MB factory set up for reliability. I did see a good local German car shop that is offering cross-drilled brembo rotors.



RobertE	Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:45 pm Post #4
Serial victim... Posts: 6,871 Group: Members Member #1,403 Joined: June 13, 2007	I'd go the route of fitting brakes from the heaviest car which will accept the 190 hubs - big W124, R129, 107, in there somewhere.



mazza	Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:58 pm Post #5
Member Posts: 614 Group: Members Member #151 Joined: January 24, 2006	Martrider Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:54 am Should i just go for a set of Hi-Spec, Compbrake or something similar and bite the bullet? Argh!!!! (Not that i have the money at the moment, i just need to know what to be keeping an eye out for). Hi off the shelve kits are still very expensive but you do get pretty much everything you need, check MOVIT calipers! last time I checked these guys had the best prices for w201 kit, also check TAROX. These are not really much help when you're a bit skint though.... check under the track section (brakes) there's a thread about a company in Germany that makes the brackets to accept brembo calipers. if you dont mind steel calipers, then go as sugested by Robert, get yourself 4 pot calipers from the cars listed and you will have plenty of stoping power. mazza



Big Ben	Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:07 pm Post #6
Member Posts: 4,905 Group: Members Member #155 Joined: January 26, 2006



Martrider	Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:28 pm Post #7
Longest build time in history? Posts: 1,530 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: November 2, 2005	I like the red anchor, maybe i could put one of those Brembo calipers stickers on it and it would look spot on! So which of the above Merc items, ie, the W14 and R129 et al that we already know about are four pots? None that i am currently aware of which is the problem. And whoever had the whole Evo II setup, that's fine if that's what you want, but the replacement parts prices are too expensive if it's going to be a predominantly a track use car. MOVIT are very nice units, and lots of the M-Sport BM guys use them but again, cost is too high. I don't want to compromise on braking, but our cars just don't need THAT much spent on them to stop well. It's all about finding a good set-up that works well together. If i would afford to go down the Wilwood direction I would, and in fact may still do at some stage. Dependant on how lairy my engine build becomes.... I'm going to have to go for cams as well now aren't i really or i will just upset myself later.



Chris Martens	Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:27 pm Post #8
Member Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #372 Joined: June 27, 2006	what's wrong on the EVO II setup in light alloy (Brembo) or cast iron (ATE)? It fits out of the box. Parts are cheap (compared to "real" Brembos or real racing brakes from ap or willwood or whatever) and widely available (ATE, Jurid, Pagid, EBC...) It's reliable. And it stops. regards, Christian



Martrider	Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:58 pm Post #9
Longest build time in history? Posts: 1,530 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: November 2, 2005	Nothing is wrong and it's a good idea, but rare, and expensive when they do come up because there are so many of us after them, and sellers know what they can get away with selling them for as they must be enthusiasts like us! lol Not seen you about in a while, nice to have you back chris, hope all is well, any news? (My thread, i can go off topic if i want to! lol)



Nath_XPR	Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:59 pm Post #10
Nordschleife Taxi Posts: 936 Group: Members Member #2,493 Joined: April 7, 2008	Martrider Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:28 pm And whoever had the whole Evo II setup, that's fine if that's what you want, but the replacement parts prices are too expensive if it's going to be a predominantly a track use car. They are no more expensive for replacement parts than any other 4 pots. If you want 280+mm disks and 4 pot callipers, then you have to be realistic and be prepared to pay that price. If not just upgrade the valver 2 pots, Jeremy's set up is strong and stands up to track use. What power and weight are you looking to achieve with your track car?



jeremy	Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:50 am Post #11
Member Posts: 6,561 Group: Members Member #2,018 Joined: December 9, 2007	Mart , If you are not doing any track work , then the standard set-up is brilliant , our brakes (in good condition) are amongst the very best anywhere . If you are going to have repeated use , then you will need to upgrade the pads , with a heat reistant backing , and upgrade the fluid for one with a higher temperature band . But the mechanical side of M-B brakes are peerless . If you are still not satisfied , then upgrade to a W124 set-up and use the servo / cylinder too . I have done this on my 3.6 , but have yet to drive it . Although the brakes on my W124 AMG Coupe are fantastic , I am hoping that a similar set-up on a 300kg lighter car that is my 3.6 will be amazing . Jeremy Edit , I have been told that braided brake lines give you a better "feel" at the pedal Edited by jeremy, Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:01 am.



Martrider	Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:19 am Post #12
Longest build time in history? Posts: 1,530 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: November 2, 2005	Sorry, i should have mentioned what i already have. I have goodridge brakelines, 16v calipers with rebuild kits (although not rebuilt yet) 16v Black Diamond (i think) discs - don't like them but they were free. Will have Red Stuffs when it's all together. But, I also have a set of W124 300E TE calipers from Mr_S which I am yet to collect from him. Which I will rebuild and give them a try, and then sell the complete set which i do not prefer as much. (If they will even make a difference). I also have new EBC handbrake shoes to go in at some stage but the rear sub is out at the moment and i've not even stripped it down yet. So that's where i am, but i was thinking i might as well go 4-pot to start with. So does anybody know which exact Merc models from the W124 and R129 etc have four pots apart from the Evo II W201. Thank you guys, when we work it out i'll get quotes for eveything and post up all the options and prices to help everyone. Edit; Power I am looking for is approx 230bhp at the fly from rebuilt engine, medium cams, bike carbs, Megajolt and exhaust. But it's the torque I want more as it's better for the way I drive. Weight, not sure yet. Still deciding on two options and may evolve anyway. 1) Will loose a lot of weight from engine bay, and at the track will remove the rear seats (Will probably remove rear squab for most of the time and thinly carpet the back). Light wheels, mine are very light already but will be getting some ultra light wheels for track tyres (I know that's unsprung.) The shell has windey windows and no sunroof and mechanical front 16v seats at the moment - may be replaced with buckets. Any ideas on weight? 2) Do all of that plus more and put a cage, remove all carpeting etc, no idea. Probably adding all the weight removed, by adding back in a cage. We'll see. Not decided yet. Will probably keep it as a road/track car first and then take it further when I get a more adult daily driver. Edited by Martrider, Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:30 am.



JM Motorsport	Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:51 pm Post #13
Member Posts: 904 Group: Members Member #398 Joined: July 11, 2006	Johan used stock 16v discs with the steel 4-pots from the w124 together with Ferodo DS2500 pads and 5.1 fluid. Very good bite, can take alot of hammering without fading.Its good reliable set up, you can of course go up to the w124 300mm disc, thats what im doing. Johans car is pushing at least 250bhp and he was among the top 10 fastest that day. It hasnt been lightened more the rear bench removed and sparco bucket seat instead of the stock Recaro. So its around 1300kg i would think Fading brakes are often the result of people not knowing how to use their brakes at track-days. For example last thursday there was a man in a AMG SL 55, with 6-pots and and 350mm discs or something. One would think that is a pretty decent setup even on a heavy car like the SL55, but he managed to destroy his brakes in less then 15 min of driving. His calipers turned from silver to yellow, and his pads actually melted and was all over his rotors. Problem was that he had very little track-day experience, and had his foot on the brake pedal for too long periods at the time. Learn your brake points, hit it hard a get off asap and apply throttle to speed out of the corner. For example the 89 DTM Evos used 4-pots and 330/280mm rotors. Many group N Evos running in the german endurance series VLN at the Nürburgring. Uses the stock EVO setup, you are not allowed to alter it, stock discs or aftermarket in the same dimensions and Pagid RS19 or 29s pads. They last at least for 4 hours of racing at one of the toughest tracks in the world. Also remember that larger discs and calipers weigh more to, so you are adding to the unpsrung weight when moving up in size. You will also need bigger wheels which are of course heavier, also adding to the unsprung weight. Edited by JM Motorsport, Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:58 pm.



jeremy	Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:13 pm Post #14
Member Posts: 6,561 Group: Members Member #2,018 Joined: December 9, 2007	Well put Mikael . & dont forget , if you can take some weight off , the standard size brakes work even better . Jeremy



bolide	Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:28 pm Post #15
Bolide Posts: 193 Group: Members Member #3,828 Joined: February 11, 2009	E320 estate calipers- I think they're 4-pots. Pads are cheap as chips I must say I don't quite understand the logic behind most brake upgrades. If you can lock the wheels with the existing brakes then the only benefit of bigger discs is a larger area to dissipate heat which will mean more stops before everything overheats I can't see anyone (apart from Jeremy?) getting their brakes that hot unless they're rallying or driving a circuit like the Nurburgring. On most UK circuits you only use the brakes 3-4 times a lap Bigger discs & different calipers won't necessarily give you more bite. If you want more bite the you have to look at harder pads, master cylinder sizes & etc. And look at pad compound that will work at higher temperatures The point about unsprung weight is very important Nick Froome



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