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| Welcome to the Mercedes 190 forum Welcome to the Mercedes 190 owners forum, the place to be for all owners and lovers of the Mercedes 190E, 190 and 190D cars. Including Cosworth (2.3 16v and 2.5 16v), EVO 1 and EVO 2 models. Modified and concourse, track cars and daily drivers, all are welcome. This free UK based club was started back in November 2005 to serve the w201 community and now has over 4000 members from all around the world and 340,000 + posts. The members welcome you and encourage you to stay a while and have a look around. We offer you friendly chat and access to some very useful information as well as tutorials with photos and videos for many common repair and maintenance jobs. Whatever your needs there is a good chance you will be able to find what your looking for. Such as our Mercedes 190 buyers guide Sign up to gain access to all areas including for sale / classified areas and country wide meetings and events. Many forum features and sections are only available once you sign up. Join our us at mercedes190.co.uk! If you're already a member please log in to your account: |
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| Getrag gearbox; the 275z - info | |
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| Topic Started: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:22 pm (1,888 Views) | |
| seolio | Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:22 pm Post #1 |
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I know I am going to sound like im stupid and thick, but I have always wondered what a getrag gearbox is? Cheers |
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| Big Ben | Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:06 pm Post #2 |
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The Getrag gearbox is a 5 speed dogleg close ratio gearbox made by Getrag! Link to their site Getrag de The shift patern is unusual as first gear is to the left and back with reverse to the left pull up and forward. It can take a bit of getting used to but is very good when you do!! |
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| seolio | Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:13 pm Post #3 |
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Cheers Big ben, I know to you and a lot of others it sounds like a stupid question but that is one thing that I just couldn't get and didn't know. I downloaded an options list for my car, and on it, it says 5-speed getrag gearbox, but my car doesn't have first back and left, although it does have the lift up, left and back for reverse?????? Thanks 
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| Big Ben | Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:18 pm Post #4 |
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If you don't ask, you don't learn!! I used to teach apprentices and you would be suprised how many were scared to ask. It took a long time for them to realise that I wouldn't laugh at a genuine question!! 
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| Big Ben | Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:24 pm Post #5 |
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There were 4 speed and 5 speed manual boxes fitted to the 190. I only owned an auto and cossie cons cars are both 16v's so I have never bothered to find out who makes the standard boxes. Lots of makers in Germany!! |
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| dave_irl | Tue Jan 9, 2007 4:42 pm Post #6 |
I love offset.
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Does anyone know exactly what Getrag box is used in 16v's? E.g. A Getrag model number. Im having a poke around their website but Im thinking these are all of the latest gearboxes they do. I did find one 5 speed for inline rwd applications, the 5MTI285, is this it? Just trying to find out some more info about this box. Seeing as I now own one and this 'Getrag' thread is very sparse on info...Is it true this box was also used in BMW E30 M3's? Also is there anything other than an oil change & zx1 that can be done/is recommended before installation? i.e. to shift linkages or internally etc.. Not often you have the gearbox out to tinker with. Cheers |
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| Racing | Tue Jan 9, 2007 6:11 pm Post #7 |
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The cossies sport the Getrag 275Z. Similar boxes were used in the E30M3 bimmers. The 275 will take a LOT of heat.Trust me on that. If we go on... THe 250 series is found in the more common 3 series cars(bimmer again) The 260s in the 5,6 and 7 series,and the M5 E34 carries the 280. IOW,the 275 is a serious overkill in the 16V,and more often than not the probs with these boxes are the shifter assy that mercedes insisted on putting as a separate part on the outside of the box. A tip,that weŽve sold tons of over here in scandinavia,is to make the main shifter bushings out of bearing quality brass. They measure 15*8,2*6mm(circular) Dismantle the shifter and take it apart.Rip the old vulcanized OEM bushings out of there and install brass ones per above with a drop of loctite instead. No BS...youŽll come to think that you swaped for a new gearbox afterwards. |
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| dave_irl | Tue Jan 9, 2007 8:12 pm Post #8 |
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I love offset.
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That is exactly the reply I was hoping for! Excellent. Should be pretty much indestructible then for the power I will be putting through it. These brass shifter bushings, how many do I need, and those dimensions, is it is it 15mm outer diameter, 8.2 inner, and 6mil thick? Im just having hard time imagining how 15*8,2*6mm is circular :rolleyes: The company I work for has a handy little engineering company next door with full machine shop & design facilities (as far as I can gather), and I have been looking for something to make use of them, get one of the lads to make some up on the side! Im just having hard time imagining how 15*8,2*6mm is circular, is it 15mm outer diameter 8.2 inner and 6mil thick? Maybe if you had one spare you could post it to me, and I could get it copied, I would be eternally grateful! My 'box is in UK so I haven't laid hands on it yet.. Im sure all will become clear when I do. Thanks again, much appreciated! |
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| Racing | Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:24 pm Post #9 |
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15,0mm outside dia 8,2 wide 6,0mm center hole for the "working" through pin and circlips. Install with a DROP of loctite on each bushing as described. Difference in shifter feel is out of this world. The ones at the shifter arms on the box...same deal but has to be cut with sort of a flange. Through diameter of the holes in the shifter arms tho is 25.0mm and width at 5,2 i believe. Centerhole for the shifter rod...donŽt take this to the bank,but if memory serves me 10.0mm. When making them i simply use 30mm bearing brass rod and turn them in the lathe at the shop. Takes 2 min a pop max. |
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| Racing | Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:25 pm Post #10 |
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Btw. Two shifter assy bushings all in all and three for the shifter arms underneath the car. |
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| Matt | Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:45 pm Post #11 |
Administrator - Hawk Eye
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Totally agreed  Oh and Dave, seems I dont have the old shifter still laying around  Prob just aswell though as it was getting quite worn. Sorry about that.
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| Martrider | Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:19 am Post #12 |
Longest build time in history?
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See you on the morrow Matt, (or later today as the case may be), not sure what time i'll be there to pick it up but i'll give you a shout. It's gonna be a LONG drive. |
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| dave_irl | Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:39 am Post #13 |
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I love offset.
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Thanks very much Racing, will have a good look at it when its back in the homeland
 Matt, by shifter do you mean just the gearstick, or the shifter assembly?? :unsure: If its just the gearstick do think I could use the one from my old gearbox? Finding Getrag parts in Ireland will be next to impossible I think. |
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| Chris Martens | Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:27 am Post #14 |
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Jesper, thank you for the data of the bushings. Just another question, wich OEM bushings do the brass parts go in for, is it part no. 14?  That is the difference, some guys on the rev try to sell these things as home made high tech gems - you are telling what and how to do. Great. thanx again, Christian |
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| Racing | Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:45 am Post #15 |
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Yup. Shifter bushings are No14 Shifter arm bushings are No149&152 The ones in the rod end..No134-iŽll get back to you on the dimensions on those. Thing is tho,the ones that REALLY makes for the difference in shifter feel on a stocker,that canŽt be seen by some anal OEM guru,and makes for the biggest difference in shifter feel are the No 14s with dimensions per above. Btw. When swaping those bushings also take the time to clean the shifter assy out as the bottom part of it is directly exposed to the elements underneath the car. When done,using common engine degreaser or similar,just spray the whole deal with some white lithium grease from a spray bomb. Again..the difference is like night and day,and ALL of that merc built in sloppiness is totaly gone.YouŽll be rewarded by a distinct,direct shifter. |
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| Racing | Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:53 am Post #16 |
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Btw Matt. The shifter per se,the one entitled No11 in the pic above,can be had fairly reasonable at the stealership. Approx 25-27 pounds incl all the little things. That gets you a new "stick" incl bushings(altho stock rubber BS),circlips aso aso. The thing is that the stick hold a sort of "bearing" that works in a recess in the plastic housing,and this "bearing"(as itŽs aluminium) can get really worn over time adding to the shifter slop. |
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| Matt | Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:18 am Post #17 |
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I mean the whole assembly Dave But as Racing says, they are quite cheap by the sounds of it
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| dave_irl | Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:59 pm Post #18 |
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I love offset.
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No worries Matt, New linkage, and some custom bushings, she'll be tighter than a little tight thing. Next question folks, internals of the gearbox, is it worth renewing anything while I have it out? Quite a handy thread this will be by the end of it.. |
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| Matt | Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:21 pm Post #19 |
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The Getrag box is in a very good working order dave, so you shouldnt have to change anything. Just give it a bit of a clean
Mart has picked it up just over an hour ago 
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| hal9000 | Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:58 pm Post #20 |
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I've never understood what some of the Kids on the Rev are thinking when they try to sell these things. I just took my oem bushings out (yes, they are #14 on the diagram) and headed down to the local machine shop. They whipped a set of brass bushings up for me for about $15 USD. No muss, no fuss, no measuring on my part, and I got the bushings quick. There are guys on the REV who have been waiting for a set of bushings for months.... even after I explained how easy and cheap it was to have a local machine shop do the work. Avoid the people who are selling these in bulk. You'll be better served by your local machine/welding shop. |
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| Conrad | Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:34 pm Post #21 |
Gunman of the apocalypse
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So, honestly. How hard is it to swap my auto for a getrag box on the 16v? Could I do it myself? |
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| hal9000 | Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:50 pm Post #22 |
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You'd need to change: transmission Flywheel Clutch Driveline Shifter and shift rods Pedal assembly (and run hydraulic lines for the clutch) Master cylinder or master cylinder reservoir None of those things are especially complicated to change, but the time and labor involved adds up to quite a bit of work. |
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| pentoman | Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:30 am Post #23 |
Resident OVP Expert
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Fuel pump relay is different for an auto car as well, I am pretty sure? |
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| dave_irl | Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:32 am Post #24 |
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I love offset.
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Cool Bit of a clean, oil change & ZX1, maybe a spray of some high temp black paint, just to be trick But seriously, whats a recommended oil? I saw some Castrol SMX stuff a while back for manual boxes, pricey enough but is it worth it? Or should I get some MB oil from GSF.. PS Hal thats exactly what I'll do now, get the bushings from my new shifter assy. when I buy it, and in next door to our machine shop. Sorted. |
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| Racing | Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:05 pm Post #25 |
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IŽll post some pics of all three types needed the next couple of days to give the rest of you an idea what they look like. Like Scott says...it ainŽt really NASA stuff in any way. |
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| Martrider | Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:51 pm Post #26 |
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Longest build time in history?
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Well i know that for manual 2.0ltr boxes the gearbox oil that should be used is AUTOMATIC gearbox oil, not manual. Look it up. Could be different for the Getrag, no experience with it, but it may be the same case. |
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| kentronix | Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:13 pm Post #27 |
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in case seolio is still reading I think the reason for a dogleg is that it makes the 2nd to 3rd shift (and 3rd to 2nd) much quicker which is the most commonly used gear change for motorsport. I could of course be totally wrong ? |
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| Racing | Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm Post #28 |
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Yup. ATF does the trick. |
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| Henrik_Rexten | Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:55 pm Post #29 |
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he he... Don't forget 4 to 5 in high speed driving. Or, Down to 4th in to corners is much better with this gear box. |
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| Racing | Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:04 pm Post #30 |
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 Bushing for the gear lever.These measure said 18,45 outer,8,3 width and 6mm inner diameter.  Bushings for the shifter arms at the box.These measure 25mm diameter at the section that goes through the arm.The flange is 30mm outer on 2mm width. Bushing protrudes 3,5mm into the arm per se and the through hole is 9mm flat for the shifter rod.  Bushings for the arms at the bottom of the shifter per se-underneath the car. Dimension are.... Flange dia 25mm Where it protrudes through the arm=15mm on a 3mm width Through hole for the shifter rod is again 9mm flat. |
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| Cosmo2.5-16 | Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:45 pm Post #31 |
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Thats great info Racing Thanx The finshed product looks great, i have loads of those rubber bushings in my garage, as when i was getting some from the dealer to do a 190, I ordered 15 of each. A well.  I will look forward to getting some made up in a machine shop.
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| Racing | Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:54 am Post #32 |
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Btw. To make these bushings work..... Install with high end bearing grease. Also..you need three washers for the bushings that go into the arms. Three with a 25mm dia and 3 with a 30mm dia-and theyŽre to have 9mm holes in them.Regular so called "chassis" washers of 10mm will do. These washers go the other end of each arm-where you put the circlip to keep the shifter rod in place. |
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| dave_irl | Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:01 pm Post #33 |
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I love offset.
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Invaluable info, thanks very much! |
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| Racing | Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:43 pm Post #34 |
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| Sev | Tue May 29, 2007 7:09 am Post #35 |
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No Longer a Registered Member
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i got mine from some kid on the rev for $20 shipped. granted, with the $5 you saved at the machine shop, you could buy a 16v and have some money left over (wink wink) hey scott, got a question for you babe--why is the getrag 1st gear to the left and down, leaving 2,3,4 and 5 in the pattern they are in? |
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| maggot | Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:55 pm Post #36 |
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As a relative newbie to the 190 and manual gearboxes in particular, can anyone help me with the part numbers that Getrag use ? I have a lead on a manual box that I am considering using on my w124. Is was originally in a 300e-24v E class and the vin decoder tells me its part no. 717450. My question, clutch type aside, is will that 'box handle a fairly big increase in power and is it comparable with or the same as the Getrag's used in the 190 2.3/2.5 ? Thanks for any assistance or info anyone can provide. |
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| hal9000 | Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:54 pm Post #37 |
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One of the Part number gurus can probably give you the details on your particular transmission and how much power it can handle. For the most part though, all the manual MB boxes seem to be pretty solid. Unless you're racing on a regular basis, or are planning a high HP forced induction setup, then you'll probably be fine. If you've confirmed that the trans came from a 300E, then it's not the same trans that the 2.3-16 used. The Getrag used in the 16V is a non-overdrive, close ratio transmission. I'm not sure but I think that all the other 5 speeds that MB used around this time were overdrive transmissions. Sev, the oddball shift pattern is part of the road racing heritage of this car. You don't use 1st gear much when road racing, so by placing it on the "dog leg" with a lockout, you can treat 2nd-5th gear as if they were a standard H pattern 4 speed and get quicker/easier shifts and not worry about accidentally hitting 1st gear instead of 3rd when shifting hard. |
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| MTI | Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:18 pm Post #38 |
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The Getrag used in the early 2.3-16 cars was the 717.404 |
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| Chris Martens | Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:06 am Post #39 |
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hi, some facts on the Getrag. All 16V used the identical Getrag box, from (even the first) 2.3-16 up to EVO II, it's all the same gear box 717.404. The 300E-24 (available for W124 and R129) used a very similar Getrag gear box type 717.450 with the identical shift pattern as the 16V. Maybe this version was not available in the NAmarket, but it was in good ol' Europe, stick shifted 300SL-24 The housing is slightly different and the ratio is different than for the 16V box but 5th gear is 1:1 as well. Since 1989 all the 24V got the two mass fly wheel, the entrance shaft of the gear box is shorter. There may be further differences that I'm not aware of but in general, it's very similar at least. Since the 300E-24 had 220hp this box will handle that power. regards, Christian |
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| maggot | Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:51 am Post #40 |
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Thanks for the info Christian. I have tried without much success to find any "ratings" for these boxes. Plenty of folk saying "it'll take 400 bhp no problem" etc , but not much in print I know from experience most German engineered products tend to exceed their maximum advertized limits by quite a margin but I would prefer to make sure or perhaps look to something else. For any that might know, I what to run in excess of 600bhp through this box, with the right clutch, can this be done ? Or will I be making a nice paperweight for myself ? :wacko: |
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