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CNN Airs U.S. Soldiers Being Killed in Iraq
Topic Started: Oct 23 2006, 02:34 PM (1,181 Views)
TheSmashedGuitar
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Love Will Tear Us Apart, Again
*waits patiently for Rosie to respond to him while she defeats others in arguement* :cigar:

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heybulldog
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Elmore James
lol zachary!! i forgot where we were... strategy?? what's your argument on strategy? that we have a bad one? need a new game plan?
When it rains and shines, it's just a state of mind
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etphonehomeyo
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baba booey!
etphonehomeyo
Oct 24 2006, 05:56 PM
heybulldog
Oct 24 2006, 05:46 PM
etphonehomeyo
Oct 24 2006, 02:35 PM
i would also like to add that i really, really don't like the idea of striking first like we did with iraq.  it's almost like giving someone the death penalty because they could commit a murder.  i just don't like it.  remember shock and awe?  imagine all the people who died.  all of the innocent people in iraq who die every day because we were doing something "just in case."

ok, but the people we were attacking IN Iraq had ALREADY committed murder. it wasnt just speculation. HENCE, why Saddam and other Iraqi leaders are on trial now for murder/torture/etc.

and yes innocent people die in war, but unlike WWII "blanket bombings", this is more precise target bombing, so dont spin it like we are just killing innocent people randomly.

1. i never said we were randomly killing innocent people. i don't think it's on purpose, but it's obviously happening and i refuse to ignore that.
2. yes, saddam killed a lot of people, but a lot of people we killed would still be alive if we would have never gone there. i know that happens in every war, but i see more of a point to other wars. world war II had to happen. this one didn't.

i'm bumping this because i think it might have been lost on page 3. if anyone already read it, just ignore it.
edit- why did i spell lost as lossed???
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heybulldog
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Elmore James
thanks, i didnt see that.
i guess eventually it comes down to personal belief with all this. When we are left with "people dying is bad" arguments, i cant really counter that. its not like i'm going to say "YES I LOVE WHEN INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE!"

so basically the argument will go like this:

you: its bad that people are dying, and NOT worth it
me: its bad that people are dying, but it IS worth it
you: no its not, and THINK of all the people who are dying!
me: i know people are dying, but YES it is worth it
you: NO it isnt
me: YES
you: NO
us: >:O

there you go, i just played out the whole scenerio for you. i could be wrong, but that's how it usually goes.
When it rains and shines, it's just a state of mind
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etphonehomeyo
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baba booey!
yeah, that's true.
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TheSmashedGuitar
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Love Will Tear Us Apart, Again
Ok Rosie, I'm saying we need a new strategy. So far, Iraq is in civil turmoil and the insurgency is still strong. Also, the Iraq War has spread more terrormis instead of liquidating it. Also, Iraqi resentment for America is growing more and more. I'm not saying we should leave, just that we need a new game plan, cause this one isn't working.

Rebuttal?

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heybulldog
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Elmore James
TheSmashedGuitar
Oct 24 2006, 06:16 PM
Ok Rosie, I'm saying we need a new strategy. So far, Iraq is in civil turmoil and the insurgency is still strong. Also, the Iraq War has spread more terrormis instead of liquidating it. Also, Iraqi resentment for America is growing more and more. I'm not saying we should leave, just that we need a new game plan, cause this one isn't working.

Rebuttal?

The whole "keep order" strategy in Iraq is obviously not working. BUT, i hear that now soldiers are going into the insurgent strongholds more (hence the higher casualty rate this last month). This could be a good thing.
Now, i'm not a military strategist Zachary, so i dont think i'm really qualified to comment on strategy. BUT, i think a lot of the negative public opinion is based on the fact that this different kind of warfare doesnt have clearcut "battles", therefore it seems like nothing is being accomplished. THe Insurgency IS a problem, but i cant really say what strategy would be best (again because im not qualified) I agree with you that all is not hunkey dorey, but with no real "wins" in the battlefield, EVERYTHING is judged by what is going wrong. you know what i mean? there isnt a measure of success, only "failure". i dont know if that makes any sense...
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TheSmashedGuitar
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heybulldog
Oct 24 2006, 06:33 PM
TheSmashedGuitar
Oct 24 2006, 06:16 PM
Ok Rosie, I'm saying we need a new strategy. So far, Iraq is in civil turmoil and the insurgency is still strong. Also, the Iraq War has spread more terrormis instead of liquidating it. Also, Iraqi resentment for America is growing more and more. I'm not saying we should leave, just that we need a new game plan, cause this one isn't working.

Rebuttal?

The whole "keep order" strategy in Iraq is obviously not working. BUT, i hear that now soldiers are going into the insurgent strongholds more (hence the higher casualty rate this last month). This could be a good thing.
Now, i'm not a military strategist Zachary, so i dont think i'm really qualified to comment on strategy. BUT, i think a lot of the negative public opinion is based on the fact that this different kind of warfare doesnt have clearcut "battles", therefore it seems like nothing is being accomplished. THe Insurgency IS a problem, but i cant really say what strategy would be best (again because im not qualified) I agree with you that all is not hunkey dorey, but with no real "wins" in the battlefield, EVERYTHING is judged by what is going wrong. you know what i mean? there isnt a measure of success, only "failure". i dont know if that makes any sense...

Yea I agree. My main arguing point is that the administrations NEEDs to take another strategy. They're saying "everything is fine" and not changing their course, which I think they should do.

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ihateguitarists
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v_v
heybulldog
Oct 24 2006, 06:33 PM
TheSmashedGuitar
Oct 24 2006, 06:16 PM
Ok Rosie, I'm saying we need a new strategy. So far, Iraq is in civil turmoil and the insurgency is still strong. Also, the Iraq War has spread more terrormis instead of liquidating it. Also, Iraqi resentment for America is growing more and more. I'm not saying we should leave, just that we need a new game plan, cause this one isn't working.

Rebuttal?

The whole "keep order" strategy in Iraq is obviously not working. BUT, i hear that now soldiers are going into the insurgent strongholds more (hence the higher casualty rate this last month). This could be a good thing.
Now, i'm not a military strategist Zachary, so i dont think i'm really qualified to comment on strategy. BUT, i think a lot of the negative public opinion is based on the fact that this different kind of warfare doesnt have clearcut "battles", therefore it seems like nothing is being accomplished. THe Insurgency IS a problem, but i cant really say what strategy would be best (again because im not qualified) I agree with you that all is not hunkey dorey, but with no real "wins" in the battlefield, EVERYTHING is judged by what is going wrong. you know what i mean? there isnt a measure of success, only "failure". i dont know if that makes any sense...

Well, we can notice whether or not the number of American deaths are going down, or if the number of war related deaths in general is going down...oh wait, we do that. :worriedlookleft:
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otlset
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donnacorleone
Oct 24 2006, 10:16 AM
Right.  I think that it's easier to point the finger at CNN and say they were wrong for showing this than to look at the bigger picture and face the fact that the bigger "wrong" is that we're still over there in the first place.

If it's wrong, then we should get out. And if we do, we abandon the Iraqi people to a full-blown Muslim vs Muslim sectarian bloodbath there. Of course then we would be blamed for that by the very people who want us out "to stop the killing", of allowing the violent tendencies of ignorant and hateful Muslims to expose their "religion of peace." I'm convinced the anti-American hatred is so endemic and reflexive in the world now, that anything the US does will be severely criticized.

The world would definitely see it as a victory for extremist murderers, after the political euphoria of a US withdrawal wore off anyway. The Islamists would see it that way as well, and be emboldened to be much more aggressive worldwide in forcing their oppressive medieval religious imaginings on the infidels. Bombs "in the name of Allah" would be going off left and right, with Islamist Iraq the new home for al-Queda.

Why has no one even mentioned the REAL evil, the REAL enemy over there? Instead of all these insidious implications that the US is the cause of the violence there, what about the real enemy that has flooded into Iraq since the overthrow -- bloodthirsty Islamic fundamentalists blindly blowing up anything and everything there just to prevent the ordinary people from gaining a just society based on equality under the law and a say in how their government is run. They really are evil. But no, let's just blame the US, as usual. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Iraq is a case in point.

It's a tragedy really. The US has sacrificed good lives and billions of dollars -- invading to rid the world of Saddam and see if the threat of WMD was real, then to attempt to stabilize and most importantly to rebuild Iraq courtesy of the US taxpayer. But of course, thanks to violent ignorant Islamists (may Allah dispatch them directly to hell) we can't even do that. Islamists are the problem, not the US.
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TheSmashedGuitar
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otlset
Oct 26 2006, 01:35 PM
donnacorleone
Oct 24 2006, 10:16 AM
Right.  I think that it's easier to point the finger at CNN and say they were wrong for showing this than to look at the bigger picture and face the fact that the bigger "wrong" is that we're still over there in the first place.

If it's wrong, then we should get out. And if we do, we abandon the Iraqi people to a full-blown Muslim vs Muslim sectarian bloodbath there. Of course then we would be blamed for that by the very people who want us out "to stop the killing", of allowing the violent tendencies of ignorant and hateful Muslims to expose their "religion of peace." I'm convinced the anti-American hatred is so endemic and reflexive in the world now, that anything the US does will be severely criticized.

The world would definitely see it as a victory for extremist murderers, after the political euphoria of a US withdrawal wore off anyway. The Islamists would see it that way as well, and be emboldened to be much more aggressive worldwide in forcing their oppressive medieval religious imaginings on the infidels. Bombs "in the name of Allah" would be going off left and right, with Islamist Iraq the new home for al-Queda.

Why has no one even mentioned the REAL evil, the REAL enemy over there? Instead of all these insidious implications that the US is the cause of the violence there, what about the real enemy that has flooded into Iraq since the overthrow -- bloodthirsty Islamic fundamentalists blindly blowing up anything and everything there just to prevent the ordinary people from gaining a just society based on equality under the law and a say in how their government is run. They really are evil. But no, let's just blame the US, as usual. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Iraq is a case in point.

It's a tragedy really. The US has sacrificed good lives and billions of dollars -- invading to rid the world of Saddam and see if the threat of WMD was real, then to attempt to stabilize and most importantly to rebuild Iraq courtesy of the US taxpayer. But of course, thanks to violent ignorant Islamists (may Allah dispatch them directly to hell) we can't even do that. Islamists are the problem, not the US.

Yes, Islamists are the mainn problem. But to ignore what the US has done just because the extreamists are worse is stupid.

We're not saying the Us is evil at all, just that we need to rethink how we're handling the situation over there.

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donnacorleone
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TheSmashedGuitar
Oct 26 2006, 02:02 PM
Yes, Islamists are the mainn problem. But to ignore what the US has done just because  the extreamists are worse is stupid.

We're not saying the Us is evil at all, just that we need to rethink how we're handling the situation over there.

Exactly.


otlset
Oct 26 2006, 01:35 PM

If it's wrong, then we should get out.  And if we do, we abandon the Iraqi people to a full-blown Muslim vs Muslim sectarian bloodbath there.  Of course then we would be blamed for that by the very people who want us out "to stop the killing"

I agree with this. At this point the U.S. is in a sort of "no-win" situation as far as that is concerned. What I was saying is that, should we really blaim CNN for simply showing the American people exactly what is happening over there? Sure no one wants to see someone be murdered, sure they may have gone a little too far, sure the family(ies) of the soldiers may be outraged... or are they? I'm curious to know exactly what the familes think. Has anyone heard or seen any interviews with them?


otlset
Oct 26 2006, 01:35 PM
Why has no one even mentioned the REAL evil, the REAL enemy over there?  Instead of all these insidious implications that the US is the cause of the violence there

Again, I don't think anyone here has implied that the U.S. is the reason or the cause of the violence in Iraq. To do so would just be ignorant. Like TheSmashedGuitar said, we're just saying that we need to refocus.

Sure I would like to see us leave. Who wouldn't? Our guys are being killed everyday. I would love for them to just get out as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, I do realize that wouldn't be a smart thing to do. But something needs to change, most definitely, because whatever we're doing over there doesn't seem to be working very well presently, as this month has seen the most bloodshed in the war in a year's time.
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heybulldog
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Elmore James
Quote:
 
sure the family(ies) of the soldiers may be outraged... or are they? I'm curious to know exactly what the familes think. Has anyone heard or seen any interviews with them?


come on. is that really your argument? even if the family has not expressed outrage over this video, i think the soldier has a right to not have his death used by the media or some people to make a point about politics.
plus, this video was aired BEFORE the family was even informed of their son's death. that is just so sad. i'm pretty POSITIVE that the family isnt pleased, even if they havent made a formal statement.
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heybulldog
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Elmore James
Quote:
 
whatever we're doing over there doesn't seem to be working very well presently, as this month has seen the most bloodshed in the war in a year's time.


how does bloodshed mean our strategy isnt working? from what i understand, american troops are actually going into insurgent strongholds this month, hence the higher casualty rate.
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TheSmashedGuitar
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heybulldog
Oct 26 2006, 04:23 PM
Quote:
 
whatever we're doing over there doesn't seem to be working very well presently, as this month has seen the most bloodshed in the war in a year's time.


how does bloodshed mean our strategy isnt working? from what i understand, american troops are actually going into insurgent strongholds this month, hence the higher casualty rate.

Yea but Iraq is in civil war. I'm not saying we're not making progress, but to say that Iraq is "going well" is kindof.....eh. :crazy:

We really need to rethink or plans for that region.

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