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Battle of the Brians.; Brian Jones vs Brian Wilson
Topic Started: Apr 14 2006, 06:35 AM (5,970 Views)
PsychicEqualizer
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Glad to be part of the club.
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St. Thomas
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Carpenter
Aug 25 2006, 04:40 PM
Hey Tom, nice to see you're slowly posting more and more on ASR. Read the post I did before my last to see the story of how Paint It Black was written.

And, to be totally honest, I rather listen to the isolated track of Brian Jones playing sitar on Paint It Black 20 times in a row than listen to Pet Sounds.

yeah, but you're getting too subjective. pet sounds is considered really big-time, like up there with sgt. pepper in most places. i'd rather listen to help! than pet sounds, but i acknowledge the true importance and everything.

i get "paint it black" and i know he wrote some stuff, but i don't think all he wrote can really compare to wilson's productivity and all that he's acknowleged for in the rock scene.
-thomas

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Carpenter
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You're right about me being too subjective. You have to remember, the only people that say Pet Sounds is up there with Pepper are people that are really into the music scene of the time and know how much McCartney was influenced by him, but if you ask most people in the main stream (by people i don't mean people that think 50 Cent is the shit) about Pepper, they'll at least have heard of it. I don't think the same goes for Pet Sounds, and I'm being objective with that.

Objectively, I still say that Brian Jones had a bigger influence on rock music than Brian Wilson. The guy has bands named after or for him, for christs sake, and more than one.
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ihateguitarists
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Aug 25 2006, 12:55 PM
You're right about me being too subjective. You have to remember, the only people that say Pet Sounds is up there with Pepper are people that are really into the music scene of the time and know how much McCartney was influenced by him, but if you ask most people in the main stream (by people i don't mean people that think 50 Cent is the shit) about Pepper, they'll at least have heard of it. I don't think the same goes for Pet Sounds, and I'm being objective with that.

Objectively, I still say that Brian Jones had a bigger influence on rock music than Brian Wilson. The guy has bands named after or for him, for christs sake, and more than one.

I'd say Brian Jones had a bigger influence on the rock lifestyle, not on the music.

I mean, dying early, drugs, lots of sex with lots of girls, that's more of a lifestyle thing than a musical thing.
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Yankee8156
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Yeah, actually, drugs, promiscuity, and death are great when it comes to rockstars.....
Brian Jones =  :cigar:  :guitar:  :headbang:  :punk:
Brian Wilson =  :crazy:  ;_;  :fear:  :huh:  :loveanim:  :nerd:  :dodido:
You be the judge!


You're seriously going to show me pictures of Brian Wilson to try to prove to me that he's not a better musician? Get a clue. By the way, if you really think that drugs, promiscuity and death make a good musician, Wilson's got the first two. He just didn't die from it. You can't be a good musician when you're dead.

SmokeyBandit
 
Yeah, that's a real mature thing to say. Yeah, right, that helps determine that Brian Jones owns Brian Wilson. Some people on this forum... I just shake my head...


LOOK WHO'S TALKING!!!! The kid whose running around calling Brian Wilson a "penis" and a "dickhead". That's most hypocritical comment I've ever seen in my life. I get it, you're a Rolling Stones fan.....but you clearly have no appreciation for music if you're not going to acknowledge Brian Wilson properly. I'm not saying you have to like him, but in order to "get" the idea behind music.....and I'm not just talking about all those side things that you think are cool (drugs, women, death).....I'm talking about how songs are crafted....the work that goes into them...the music behind them....you have to acknowledge Brian Wilson's contributions without calling him names like some Junior High punk.

Carpenter
 
I agree with Bandit about some things, but I wouldn't say that Jones is better than Wilson cause he took so many drugs, fucked so many chicks, and died so many years earlier than he should've. I'd point out all the great things he contributed to music.


Exactly. If you're going to try to sell anyone on anything, you don't start by making fun of the opposing views, using childish name calling or horrible lifestyle choices to defend your point. You use what counts....what the poll is about....the contributions to music.

Smokey Bandit
 
So that's it! You're judging Brian Jones by his death! I bet if that dick Wilson died early in life, and Brian Jones was still alive, you'd be all "Oh yeah, Brian Jones is way better." But you're not doing that, because you cannot accept death as a part of life. I admit that as much of a dink as that idiot Brian Douglas Wilson is, he did have some talent.... NOT! And especially NOT when he's up against Brian Jones! Let's be honest here - yeah, Pet Sounds is a good album, and it did influence rock, but does that make the Beach Boys better than the Rolling Stones (Greatest Rock 'n' Roll Band of all Time)? - No, it doesn't. Essentially what you're saying is that because the Beach Boys influenced others, that makes them better! Alright then, I guess Glenn Miller and his orchestra (or other Big Band Orchestras) are now considered the greatest rock band and talent of all time, because they influenced the popular music scene of their day! That's ridiculous. Sure the Beach [Mama's] Boys were around at the same time, but that doesn't mean they can't get schooled by Brian Jones, and his rock group, The Rolling Stones. You've gotta be kiddin' me that Brian Wilson did more than Brian Jones. What an idiotic statement! Brian Jones founded the Rolling Stones and on the side invented a genre of music! What did Wilson do besides record some do-whop music with a bunch of guys who sounded like little girls. I mean, even Janis Joplin owns the Beach [Choir] Boys, and she's a woman. Brian Jones wasn't just "another guy in the band"! He was the leader of the band! He formed The Rolling Stones and got them their first gigs! Mick Jagger (and nothing against him) was nothing but the lead singer in the Stones' original days. And he did make a lot of contributions to the songs of the Rolling Stones - they just went uncredited. "Paint It, Black" was drastically different before Jones pitched in. And you speak as if Brian Jones wasn't with the Stones during their greatest period. Many of us consider the Brian Jones-era of the Rolling Stones to be their greatest!

Maybe you don't know enough about Brian Jones. I suggest you read up on him on Wikipedia.

Take a look at the trailer for Stoned (2005), a film about the life of Brian Jones. That'll show you who he really was.

Also, to fully understand the musical talents anc capabilities of Brian Jones, buy or download some of these albums:

The Rolling Stones (England's Newest Hitmakers)
12x5
The Rolling Stones, Now!
Out Of Our Heads!
Out Of Our Heads! [UK]
December's Children (And Everybody's)
Big Hits (High Tide & Green Grass)
Aftermath
After-math [UK]
Got Live If You Want It!
Between The Buttons
Between The Buttons [UK]
Flowers
Their Satanic Majesties Request
Beggars Banquet
Through The Past, Darkly (Big Hits Vol. 2)
Let It Bleed
Hot Rocks (1964 - 1971)
More Hot Rocks (Big Hits & Fazed Cookies)
The Rolling Stones Singles Collection - The London Years
Metamorphosis

Then you'll understand how great Brian Jones was.


Guess what? Did The Rolling Stones influence Sgt. Pepper? No, but Brian Wilson did! Saying Brian Wilson is more influential than Brian Jones is not idiotic.

That comment about the "Stoned" movie shows how much you know about Jones, since the movie was trashed as being an innacurate representation of Jones' life. Geez, even I knew that.

Also, to fully understand the musical talents and capabilities of Brian Wilson, buy or download some of these albums, because I bet you haven't heard a single one:

Surfin' Safari
Surfin' USA
Surfer Girl
Little Deuce Coupe
Shut Down, Vol. 2
All Summer Long
The Beach Boys Today!
Summer Days (and Summer Nights!!!)
Beach Boys' Party!
Smiley Smile
Wild Honey
Friends
20/20
Sunflower
Surf's Up
Brian Wilson Presents Smile

SmokeyBandit
 

To all these uneducated people on this forum:
If you love Brian Wilson so much, why don't you marry him? Or maybe get a blow-up doll and tape a picture to the head. Then you can satisfy your Brian Wilson-loving urge and not waste the time of the non-idiots on this forum.


You want uneducated? Take a look at your post. If you're the "non-idiot", you'll wish you hadn't posted that.

Carpeneter
 
The Brian Jones guys are the kinda guys that aren't afraid to take some acid and watching cartoons.


Wilson's use of acid nearly killed him (fortunately he got straight before it was too late) and was well-known for spending day upon day in his pajamas in bed with the functionality of a child.
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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Carpenter
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Good point, but I still think he was a bigger influence on music than Wilson. The Bandit coming on here and talking mainly about his lifestyle has sorta fucked up that argument for me, but seriously, his influence on music is phenomenal.

- He was the first guitarist in Britain to play slide guitar.
- Their cover of Little Red Rooster, in which he plays harmonica and slide guitar and clearly masterminded it, was the first blues song to go to number one.
- Although George Harrison was the first person to use an Indian instrument in Western rock music, Brian used it on a number one single that was played in radio stations all over the world and therefore reached a wider audience at the time (how many times have you heard Paint It Black on your local classic rock station as opposed to Norwegian Wood?). Many still think that Brian was the first guy to do that, and even though he wasn't, he's still influenced a lot of people because of it. He also used the sitar and indian instruments more than George did in the coming years.
- He was the first musician to use a dulcimer in rock music.
- He was the first musician to use marimbas in rock music.
- The song at the top of Rolling Stone's greatest songs ever was influenced by him (Like A Rolling Stone), including another song from the same album (Ballad Of A Thin Man).
- He pioneered the use of the mellotron.
- He wrote Ruby Tuesday, one of the greatest songs of the 60s (and one that has influenced a guy to name his restaurant chain after it).
- He taught Mick Jagger to play harmonica, and some of Mick's (as well as Brian's of course) harmonica parts are considered some of the greatest in rock music (Midnight Rambler).
- The movie DiG! (which won the Sundance Film Festival award in 2004) is based on an underground indie band called The Brian Jonestown Massacre. They are critically acclaimed by everyone from the New York Times to AllMusic.com, and are possibly the most popular of the underground indie bands of the '90s. The leader claims to have been visited by the spirit of Brian Jones and channeled him while creating most of his albums.
- He is credited as recording/mixing/producing/presenting/etc the first 'world music album' ever (Pipes of Pan At Jajouka Presented By Brian Jones).
- He's the only musician from another band to appear more than once on a Beatles recording, once by request (Yellow Submarine [backing vocals] and You Know My Name [sax]).
- His fingerprints are all over every Stones album from their start to Beggars Banquet, especially Aftermath (one of the most influential albums EVER, even moreso than Pet Sounds, I'd say).

I could go on, and probably will, but that's all for now.

"I do say, and do honestly believe, that if there wasn't a Brian Jones there wouldn't have been a Rolling Stones. He named the band, and he enlisted the members one by one."

- Bill Wyman
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Yankee8156
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By the way, my issue is not with those who think Jones is legitimately better----I respect your opinion. My issue is with those who are just trashing Wilson and The Beach Boys, with absolutely no logical reason, and using illogical arguments and childish mudslinging to support their half-assed statements. I haven't seen a single Wilson supporter do that to Brian Jones yet, and I hope not to.
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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Yankee8156
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Aug 25 2006, 05:32 PM
Good point, but I still think he was a bigger influence on music than Wilson. The Bandit coming on here and talking mainly about his lifestyle has sorta fucked up that argument for me, but seriously, his influence on music is phenomenal....

Don't worry Carpenter, I know what you're trying to say, and I respect your opinions. We just see it a different way....it's the other, more immature arguments that aren't coming from you that I'm defending Wilson from.
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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Carpenter
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Yeah, thanks. It pisses me off too when he calls Wilson names, cause even though it's not my cup of tea, he did do great things for music.
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St. Thomas
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Yankee8156
Aug 25 2006, 05:32 PM
By the way, my issue is not with those who think Jones is legitimately better----I respect your opinion. My issue is with those who are just trashing Wilson and The Beach Boys, with absolutely no logical reason, and using illogical arguments and childish mudslinging to support their half-assed statements. I haven't seen a single Wilson supporter do that to Brian Jones yet, and I hope not to.

same, that list of brian jones' achievements is staggering.

what's your signature quote from, dan?
-thomas

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Yankee8156
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NorwegianWood65
Aug 25 2006, 06:32 PM
what's your signature quote from, dan?

Paul's 1984 Playboy Magazine Interview
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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St. Thomas
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By mid-April Pet Sounds was finished and had been submitted to Capitol. "Caroline, No," released as a solo single; interestingly, it was credited to Brian Wilson alone, leading to speculation that he was considering leaving the band.

The single reached #32 in the United States. "Sloop John B" was extremely successful, scoring a #3 hit in the U.S. and #2 in Great Britain. "Wouldn't It Be Nice" reached #8 in the U.S. Its flip side, "God Only Knows," was another #2 single in Britain, but reached only #39 in the States. The LP broke into the Top Ten in the U.S., belaying its reputation as a commercial failure there.

Pet Sounds' greatest success was in the UK, where it reached #2 in the LP charts. Its success there was aided by considerable support from the British music industry, who embraced the record warmly; Paul McCartney spoke often about the album's influence on The Beatles and Rolling Stones manager Andrew Loog Oldham even went as far as placing unsolicited advertisements lauding the album in British music papers, at his own expense: or so it was claimed for many years. However, a trawl of the UK pop press for 1966 fails to uncover any such advert.

However, like Beach Boys' Party!, Pet Sounds failed to reach gold status on its initial release, which deeply disappointed Brian. Much of the blame for its lukewarm commercial fortunes has been laid with Capitol Records, which did not promote the album as heavily as the band's earlier releases. Pet Sounds eventually went gold and platinum in 2000.

Although not a big seller for the band originally, Pet Sounds has been influential since the day it was released. Rapturously received in Britain, it was lauded in the music press and championed by many top pop stars. The Beatles, for example, have said that Pet Sounds was a major influence on the Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album, and Paul McCartney has repeatedly named it as one of his favorite albums (with "God Only Knows" as his favorite song) — completing a circle begun by the Beatles' influence on Brian (see "the beginning of Pet Sounds", above). McCartney stated that:

"It was Pet Sounds that blew me out of the water. I love the album so much. I've just bought my kids each a copy of it for their education in life ... I figure no one is educated musically 'til they've heard that album ... I love the orchestra, the arrangements ... it may be going overboard to say it's the classic of the century ... but to me, it certainly is a total, classic record that is unbeatable in many ways ... I've often played Pet Sounds and cried. I played it to John [Lennon] so much that it would be difficult for him to escape the influence ... it was the record of the time. The thing that really made me sit up and take notice was the bass lines ... and also, putting melodies in the bass line. That I think was probably the big influence that set me thinking when we recorded Pepper, it set me off on a period I had then for a couple of years of nearly always writing quite melodic bass lines. "God Only Knows" is a big favourite of mine ... very emotional, always a bit of a choker for me, that one. On "You Still Believe In Me", I love that melody - that kills me ... that's my favourite, I think ... it's so beautiful right at the end ... comes surging back in these multi-colored harmonies ... sends shivers up my spine."


Other artists have also cited Pet Sounds as one of the all time classic albums. Eric Clapton stated that "I consider Pet Sounds to be one of the greatest pop LPs to ever be released. It encompasses everything that's ever knocked me out and rolled it all into one." Elton John thinks that "Pet Sounds is a landmark album. For me to say that I was enthralled would be an understatement. I had never heard such magical sounds, so amazingly recorded. It undoubtedly changed the way that I, and countless others, approached recording. It is a timeless and amazing recording of incredible genius and beauty." Beatles producer George Martin stated that "Without Pet Sounds, Sgt. Pepper wouldn't have happened… Pepper was an attempt to equal Pet Sounds." Bob Dylan has said of Brian Wilson's talents, "That ear - I mean, Jesus, he's got to will that to the Smithsonian."

-wikipedia
-thomas

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Carpenter
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Aftermath is greater than Pet Sounds. - Jesus.

By the way, I can totally hear the Pet Sounds influence on songs like When I'm Sixty Four, but fuck me if Sgt. Pepper (intro and reprise), Lucy In The Sky, Getting Better, Within You Without You, Good Morning, Mr. Kite, and A Day In The Life have any Beach Boys influence. Besides, Paul was writing melodic bass lines way before (All My Loving and Michelle) and those comments, I believe, are merely to plug a favorite album of his that didn't do too well outside of the UK. As much as any one wants to say otherwise, Pepper does NOT sound like Pet Sounds. I believe that Paul was influenced a little musically and inspired a lot to make a great album (because he probably saw Pet Sounds as better than their previous stuff) but Lennon and Harrison apparently couldn't have given a shit, and it shows.

Believe me, I tried, I REALLY REALLY tried to get into Pet Sounds. I was actually getting frustrated because of the Beatles fans that kept saying it inspired Pepper. I was pissed that I only liked a few songs, and that aside from Wilson's bouncy basslines, it had nearly nothing in common with Pepper. Until I realized, it's all a bunch of hype, and a large group of people honestly believing that Paul is saying that because it's true, and not because he wants to help the Beach Boys sell a few mil. more. Then I just gave up on it. God Only Knows, yeah, alright. Wouldn't It Be Nice, cool. Caroline, No, okay. But fuck, it's not PEPPER! OR REVOLVER! OR RUBBER SOUL! OR BLONDE ON BLONDE OR AFTERMATH!

It's an okay album and it's influence isn't as meteoric as you guys make it out to be. Not to be mean or rude, but seriously, an album that reached number 10 in America did not reach or 'influence' as many people as an album that reached number 2 *cough* aftermath *cough*. If Paul had said it was garbage, you'd all be saying it was garbage. So let's give it a bit of a rest, ey? It's a good album, but Paul McCartney (and Keef Richards, for that matter) wrote better stuff in his sleep. And that's not an insult, that's a fact.
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St. Thomas
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yikes, dude. :cigar:

it's ok if you didn't like it as much, but some of us love it. it's well-known that that album takes a long time to get into. sure, there's a lot of hype, but it fits it to me. aftermath is underrated, sure, but this isn't a contest. it wasn't just paul, it was all those musicians who dug it, it was new for them at the time. and there's great melodies and such. like i said, it's always better to appreciate an album to its fullest potential, remember? it's easy to just say things are overrated. you were completely on about aftermath in your review, by the way.
-thomas

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Carpenter
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NorwegianWood65
Aug 25 2006, 05:04 PM
yikes, dude.  :cigar:

it's ok if you didn't like it as much, but some of us love it. it's well-known that that album takes a long time to get into. sure, there's a lot of hype, but it fits it to me. aftermath is underrated, sure, but this isn't a contest. it wasn't just paul, it was all those musicians who dug it, it was new for them at the time. and there's great melodies and such. like i said, it's always better to appreciate an album to its fullest potential, remember? it's easy to just say things are overrated. you were completely on about aftermath in your review, by the way.

Dude, it's influential, but not as much as The Beatles', Dylan's, and The Stones' efforts in the same year. You'd be surprised how many times an artist puts an exotic instrument in a song to reference Jones. I'm even willing to bit that the majority of the times that a sitar is used, the artist has Jones in mind.
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