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Battle of the Brians.; Brian Jones vs Brian Wilson
Topic Started: Apr 14 2006, 06:35 AM (5,956 Views)
Carpenter
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and it's not even the chord progressions. it's the overall theme, mood, melody, subject matter. i mean look at chuck berry: he had the same chord progressions just in different keys and very similar riffs, but sang about different things.
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otlset
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Dear Prudence
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Oct 11 2006, 01:30 PM
He used it to show to the class how you could write a hit song with basic chords and use them again and again and people would still buy it.

I love chocolate ice cream. It's amazing how many variants of the same chocolate flavor they come up with, and I guess I'm so dumb I pretty much buy and enjoy them all.
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Dude, not to be rude, but that's a horrible analogy. There's only so many flavors of Ice Cream you could dig, and chocolate is a popular one. If you think it's too much to as that the music vary a little bit, listen to The Beatles output. Each single (or at least every other single) had something new in it. The Who, The Stones, The Doors, they all had some sort of progression or difference in themes or moods. Not so with The Beach Boys.
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St. Thomas
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Oct 11 2006, 05:50 PM
and it's not even the chord progressions. it's the overall theme, mood, melody, subject matter.

i guess, but if you can not really care about chuck having all the same progressions and riffs, i don't see how wilson is much different. he was actually the only one of them who wanted to break out of the surf movement theme, but was criticized heavily for it. before that, he was writing to what the public, the record companies, and the other band members demanded.
-thomas

last.fm
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St. Thomas
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Oct 11 2006, 05:55 PM
The Who, The Stones, The Doors, they all had some sort of progression or difference in themes or moods. Not so with The Beach Boys.

to be fair, by the time these bands were progressing heavily, so were the beach boys. 65-66-ish. obviously no band could touch what the beatles were doing, so forget them.
-thomas

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otlset
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Dear Prudence
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Oct 11 2006, 01:55 PM
Dude, not to be rude, but that's a horrible analogy. There's only so many flavors of Ice Cream you could dig, and chocolate is a popular one.

It's a good analogy. You have a wide variety of chocolate (fudge, marble, chip, double chocolate, chunk, white chocolate, etc.) within the category "chocolate", like you have a wide variety of sounds and song structures using chords in the category "basic chords". The Beach Boy's genius lies in just that; making what sounds grand out of the simple building blocks of basic chords.
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Satisfaction was a huge leap for music at the time, and it wasn't very similar at all to The Last time which had come out before it, yet the Rolling Stones did all that before The Beach Boys decided to become original with Pet Sounds.
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otlset
Oct 11 2006, 06:06 PM
Carpenter
Oct 11 2006, 01:55 PM
Dude, not to be rude, but that's a horrible analogy. There's only so many flavors of Ice Cream you could dig, and chocolate is a popular one.

It's a good analogy. You have a wide variety of chocolate (fudge, marble, chip, double chocolate, chunk, white chocolate, etc.) within the category "chocolate", like you have a wide variety of sounds and song structures using chords in the category "basic chords". The Beach Boy's genius lies in just that; making what sounds grand out of the simple building blocks of basic chords.

like i said before, it's not only the chords. it's also the intervals. my band uses common chords but we have different intervals an moods going on. i get a little sick of the whole california surf thing real quick.
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St. Thomas
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Oct 11 2006, 06:07 PM
Satisfaction was a huge leap for music at the time, and it wasn't very similar at all to The Last time which had come out before it, yet the Rolling Stones did all that before The Beach Boys decided to become original with Pet Sounds.

true, but side 2 of the beach boys today was all introspective ballads with string arrangements (i think) written by brian wilson, a big leap for him at the time from happy surf music, and a huge step towards pet sounds as well. march 1965.

not to mention "in my room" from '63. the first truly introspectively lyrical rock song that wasn't lennon's "there's a place".
-thomas

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Yankee8156
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Loretta
You also have to remember the times that The Beach Boys and The Rolling Stones first gained popularity (and, by the way, I don't think most of their early singles sound alike....maybe a single with an album track, but none of their singles....you're not looking past the lyrics if you think that's the case). The Beach Boys you're thinking of----with the "similar" songs are from 1962-1963. That's back when you wouldn't expect singles to be groundbreakingly different each time. By the time The Rolling Stones had surfaced (after The Beatles and other groups had moved away from that style of single releases) The Beach Boys had also shifted to a point where it was no longer similar sounding surf/car singles. You have to realize that when The Beach Boys gained their initial popularity, record companies simply didn't give artists the freedom that they would two years later to artists like the Beatles, Stones and more mature Beach Boys.

Edit: I mean, look at the charts from 1962....now imagine how radically different The Beach Boys were to that, just like The Stones are to a 1964 chart. Different eras (and yes, 2 years back in the sixties was an eternity musically, not just two short years).
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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Yankee8156
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Loretta
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Oct 11 2006, 06:07 PM
Satisfaction was a huge leap for music at the time, and it wasn't very similar at all to The Last time which had come out before it, yet the Rolling Stones did all that before The Beach Boys decided to become original with Pet Sounds.

And I'll say the same exact thing about Fun, Fun, Fun and California Girls (to use the two songs compared earlier)......Fun, Fun, Fun is a simple song with really great harmonies, whereas California Girls is a pop symphony short of only Good Vibrations.
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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Another point for Jones: Jones never had to get studio musicians to do anything he wanted to, Wilson did.
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Yankee8156
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Loretta
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Oct 12 2006, 03:55 PM
Another point for Jones: Jones never had to get studio musicians to do anything he wanted to, Wilson did.

That's because Jones never wanted to do what Wilson did. The point for Jones is really that he played instruments better. If the Rolling Stones considered the production of Phil Spector to be their greatest challenege, they would have gone out and got studio musicians too.
My Beatles Trading Post (Updated Regularly)

"George had just come off tour, I'd flown in specially from England, Ringo had flown in specially, too, I think, and John wouldn't show up! He wouldn't come from across the park! George got on the phone, yelled, 'Take those fucking shades off and come over here, you!' John still wouldn't come over. He had a balloon delivered with a sign saying, LISTEN TO THIS BALLOON. It was all quite far out." -Paul McCartney
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I seriously doubt that. Beyond Nicky Hopkins on keyboards, no studio musicians would've been needed. If you think that The Stones never achieved a high level of musicianship or musical virtuosity with Brian in the band, you're not listening to Their Satanic Majesties close enough. 2000 Light Years From Home (which isn't half as good without Brian's string part; seriously: listen to it without the right channel) outdoes The Beach Boys highest production.

Besides, The Rolling Stones didn't need to set a goal to match Phil Spector; by the time they got to America and recorded England's Newest Hitmakers, they had him under their thumbs (he loved them, thought they were great, played on a couple songs and co-wrote one with them). They thought his sweet bubble gum pop songs were a bit of a joke, as 5 hard-boiled R&B avatars from England would.

Here's a bootleg from those same sessions:

Andrew's Blues

Yes now Andrew Oldham sittin' on a hill with Jack and Jill (Jack and Jill)
Fucked all night and sucked all night and taste that pussy till it taste just right
Oh Andrew (yes Andrew) oh Andrew (yes Andrew)
Oh suck it Andrew (go on Andrew), fuck it Andrew (go on Andrew)
Oh Andrew Oldham (yeah) A guy who really know his way around
(down down down down)

Well I said I wouldn't lay you baby, till the day that we would wed
But every time I kiss you, you know, I forget just what I said
Well well I let you keep it tonight if you hold me, hold it real tight
Oh oo Andrew (oh Andrew) oh oh Andrew (yes Andrew)
Come and get it little Andrew, before Sir Edward takes it away from you,
Come on get her cunt Sir Edward, come on now

Huh huh play the blues everybody, play the blues
Huh fuckin'! The Rolling Stones are a great fuckin' group
What a lot of balls, Phil Spector is a lot of shit
I though Phil Spector was a lot of shit
And I've heard the group, now I know their a lot of shit


That sure was fine (yeah baby)
Got my Beatles shoes on and I'm just raring to go
Oh Andrew (yes Andrew) oh Andrew (yeah)
Ah ah ah ah, ah ah ah ah ah,
Listen Andrew, Phil, Sir Edward Lewis, the Rolling Stones, the hottest
Phil Spector, Gene Pitney (thank you), musical radios
Birds, Al Davis showing up, ahh, yeah
(Great time man) That's all (great side man)

You know that Andrew got to walk with his baby,
Andrew has a talk with his baby
Now I know Andrew understood
That's what happen when the gettin' gets good
Oh Andrew (ba ba) oh Andrew (ba ba)
Suck it Andrew (ba ba) fuck it Andrew (ba ba)

Sir Edward where are you, Andrew is makin through
Andrew, come on Andrew shit
Oh fuck Sir Andrew, yeah!
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St. Thomas
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i love katie
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Oct 12 2006, 03:55 PM
Another point for Jones: Jones never had to get studio musicians to do anything he wanted to, Wilson did.

yeah brian jones was an amazing instrumentalist, but i wouldn't put him over paul mccartney, either. or john lennon.
-thomas

last.fm
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