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| Topic Started: Sep 9 2009, 01:11 PM (2,481 Views) | |
| dave f | Sep 9 2009, 01:11 PM Post #1 |
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All-Star
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I posted this in my blog on gbbasketball.net. Moving away form the cult of the personality on other threads is there anyone with a view on the above? To see the game played at such a high level was a real experience. I have no doubt that we suffer in our country because of the high level of exposure we have to inferior quality US college basketball at the expense of top quality Euro competition. This is pure and intensely physical basketball. The Serbian team that dismantled Spain was missing 8 top players. Now they don’t send their best players to US colleges. Partizan Belgrade alone have developed a raft of Euroleague players over the last few years. This tournament should be a wake up call for everyone in British basketball. We need to take control of our own development. BBL clubs need to actively scout, recruit and invest in talented young players, EB and BPB need to actively promote this pathway and provide financial incentive to those clubs. A pro U21 league is desperately required. Talent development cannot be left solely to the odd exceptional program which develops simply through chance and the quality of the people involved. BPB, EB and the BBL need to send a joint delegation to Serbia for 2 weeks to monitor the program and Partizan Belgrade. They then need to do the same at Tau in Spain. Find out how the best do it and then commit the resources to develop their systems long term. That has to be our Olympic legacy and if it is not in place by 2012 then BPB, EB and the BBL have failed no matter how close we come to a medal. We are currently operating in a vacuum created and sustained by our own ignorance and lack of curiosity. It has to change. Bring on the Spanish. |
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| Number6 | Sep 9 2009, 01:24 PM Post #2 |
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Sixth Man
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Sharks, went down the line of liking up wiyh Halam Uni., and offering sponsored scolarships, but try as we may things just dont work out. We have had 2/3 really good 16/17 yr olds , but the ones who are really good want, understandably to make a living out of it, and the money is in the US , but the NCAA have this ruling that should they suit-up for a BBL team & play, then they are not eligible to ply their trade there, So , hopefull basketball players, come through the Junior ranks, look as though they could step up but dont, so as to protect the possibility that they may be good enough for the NCAA. And so we lose all the best prospects who end up going abroad. I really agree that we need to broker a system , maybe based at 4 or 5 Big Universities , where we can concentrate the talent, so they play each other, and maybe link into the EBL & the BBL, It would ofcourse help, if we had a philanthropic sponsor / Investor, who could offer contracts, to young players to be signed up to guaranteeing them, some reasonable income at the outset of their careers , and help in developing a marketing strategy , for a percentage payback over their whole career in repayment. Could we take this option before the Dragons Den ????????? |
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Number6, cut me in half & it will say SHARKS SUPPORTER all the way through | |
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| retsek | Sep 9 2009, 11:42 PM Post #3 |
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"inferior quality US college basketball" Huh? NCAA division one is poor? Have I understood you correctly? "BBL clubs need to actively scout, recruit and invest in talented young players, EB and BPB need to actively promote this pathway and provide financial incentive to those clubs. A pro U21 league is desperately required." In theory it's a sound idea, no doubt about it. But how do the investors recoup their losses? Any potential gains are certainly only going to be long term, so who in their right mind would be willing to make such a gamble with our top professional league at the standard it is now, with no TV exposure and minimal crowds? EB is hardly a wealthy organisation with money to throw around, or are they getting substantial government money as a result of 2012 that we're not aware of? Edited by retsek, Sep 9 2009, 11:43 PM.
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| StrandedonA303 | Sep 10 2009, 07:17 AM Post #4 |
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Sixth Man
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NCAA Div 1 is not on the same level as te Euroleague or any major league in Europe. Would Freeland be the type of player he is had he gone to college I think he would be a huge one dimensional forward with poor fundamentals whereas he has turned into a lean powerful athlete with a wide range of skills and moves. If a player wants to go to college in US for basketball only, forget it! If you want to take advantage of the education, then go. For basketball only, go to Europe. Edited by StrandedonA303, Sep 10 2009, 07:41 AM.
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| Connors | Sep 10 2009, 07:36 AM Post #5 |
Bench Player
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I agree with Dave Forrester that we really need to look a lot closer to home when it comes to the future of basketball in this country. For too long we have been mired in dreams of NBA style play - putting a premium on pure athletes rather than pure players. At the top of our game we need a return to a league structure more in line with what is popular in this country and pressure on the BBC to promote more "minority sports" on it's publicly funded plethora of digital channels. We need more municipal sports centres like they have in France and Spain. We need EB to help co-ordinate funding for big regional clubs that can promote development and be linked to and support smaller local clubs to help stimulate grass roots interest. with these things in place there is less likliehood of players running to the states to live the dream. Obviously a lot of players who go to the states come back better players but not everyone. When I was 16 a teamate was selected to go on a scholarship based on his size (6ft 5) and athleticism. He returned 2 years later and could not make the boroughs london youth games squad until someone pulled out with an injury. He stopped playing by the age of 20. Isolated case but it just shows how tough it is to go so far from home to play a sport. We need all the things people have mentioned on this thread but most of all we need to get real. I'll be amazed if any of it happens in my lifetime......... |
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| StrandedonA303 | Sep 10 2009, 07:43 AM Post #6 |
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Sixth Man
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If Ricky Rubio had gone to College, what purpose would it have served? He's been playing at a higher level for 4 years. |
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| GRoberts | Sep 10 2009, 08:35 AM Post #7 |
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Bench Player
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It's not fair to compare NCAA with pro European leagues. NCAA is for for college students (it's in the name) and is hugely practical because it gives kids an education (often on a scholarship!) in more than just basketball, while offering the opportunity for a select few to go pro. Most NBA players have indeed been through the college system. At the risk of repeating myself, the BBL is not going to develop many good young kids into international standard players. Guys like Amaechi (who played when the standard was higher than it is now) and Sullivan are exceptions to the rule. At the moment, the suggestion that the BBL is a "pro league" is tenuous- I'd say it was more accurate to call it semi-pro. However, for British kids, it would be ideal if we had some sort of structure that allowed kids to compete at a higher level domestically. Is there any chance we could develop top university programmes here? Some ventures exist on a small scale- Leeds Carnegie comes to mind; they serve women too- but a huge injection of cash and a massive change of infrastructure would be needed to make such a thing possible. I simply can't see that happening.  |
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| wildcat | Sep 10 2009, 09:56 AM Post #8 |
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Where to begin. It also feels a bit like groundhog day since we appear to have this discussion at the beginning of every season. However, what's different is that we've got a major BBL representative and newly acclaimed TV personality directing some responsibility to the BBL for scouting early and perhaps even offering contracts early. That is a major shift. Rather than getting the local youngsters on the bench, BBL clubs scout nation-wide at national league junior games, play offs and final fours and provide an alternative to the US pathway (the European one is something different). At the moment, there are very few junior programmes that actively link with the senior quad (Reading perhaps the most notable exception, but that's EBL), where talented youngsters can practice and play up. If the BBL actively invest in this idea and also actually play youngsters to develop that would indicate a truly major shift in BBL basketball. How to compete with the lure of the US is of course another story. As I've said before, it also has to do with life experience and being a basketball player in Britain as opposed to in the US. The big stadiums, media interest, and general recognition as a ball player abroad as opposed to in the UK is a major obstacle. For a young player and parents the US does appear like a dream. And players and parents will go to extremes to fulfill that dream, with major personal financial commitments to US prep school or the promise of the Gran Canaria basketball academy that specifically tries to capture that big money market. At the end that journey, a basketball scholarship at an NCAA D1 school. What are the percentages of players getting that scholarshiip? Of course we hear about those that get the scholarship here ('Brits Abroad') but what happens to all those others? And then, what about playing time once the dream has been achieved for those luck few? It remains astonishing that so many people are willing to invest so much for just that chance. Keep following the 'Brits Abroad' and see how much playing time they receive in order to develop into the world class players we want. At the U16 championships, scouts from Spain and Italy were looking at the new talents and the UK players got some serious looks and interest. The MVP there, Ivanov, plays in Italy, senior men pro (he's a 1993) and many of the others big talents were Europe bound. The language factor is also incredibly important in these decisions, since it's easier for UK players to go to the US than to places where you would actually have to learn a foreign language. The opposite is also true in that contintental European players have more obstacles passes the English language threshold for prep schools and US college. In order to get the European 'exposure,' the top national junior programmes, the youth national teams, need to play at the top European tournaments. The Barking Abbey tournament and the Kingston tournament offers a couple of chances for exposure here in the UK, but we need to go to big tournaments abroad, for the youth national teams, playing against A-division opponents, and the club team against other national champions. And again, that costs money. But that's where investment should go. Higher and better competition, playing up and up and up. I think Newcastle's call for early national scouting and signing up is immensely interesting. Yes. It would probably close the American college dream (even though that is also something peculiar to the separate governing structures in basketball unique in Europe) but it could be sold to players and parents as a true alternative, with not masses of savings going out of the door for a distant dream, but clear pathway and commitment for the future. The BBL cannot compete with the big European clubs in terms of finances, experience in developing youth players, and life expectancy (clubs come and go, and what if a young player signs for a club that then disappears the next year because the sponsor pulls out?). But this is definitely a start. And maybe they can even link up with a big European club (a kind of reverse of football power relations). I was at two European youth championships this year, and it is true, compared to other European countries, the UK has by far the most players in the US system or players aiming to go there. At the U20B championships, most of the other teams had players exclusively playing in European pro leagues, either in their own country or in the 'big' ones (Spain and Italy). They had played in pro-leagues from an early age, receiving contracts early. Partizan Belgrade signs them up quick (after recruiting players very young) and get a good return when foreign clubs want to sign their players. Of course it does help that players are committed to practice every day (and sometimes twice). from my experience with talented young players here in the UK, it is rare to see that kind of player commitment here. But then the irony is when they go to the US or even Europe, they look forward to all those practices and a future in basketball. Probably something to do with the life experience again, but something that I really can't get my head around. Let's see if the BBL clubs are indeed willing to give the truly national youngster these chances of a decent living and a basketball career. Play them early! Allow mistakes. Anyway, there's so much involved here and I for one will be very interested in seeing Newcastle pilot this approach. Sorry for the long post. Edited by wildcat, Sep 10 2009, 09:57 AM.
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| Mr Flea | Sep 10 2009, 02:31 PM Post #9 |
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This may be a crazy idea but could the BBL not impose a minimum number of minutes that each team has to play their U20s for each game or in a month or season? This may be one player or split between a few? If everyone had the same constraint it could be fair. It would be up to the coach how these minutes were used, however. A further thought might be that you had fewer minutes to make up if you played more GB eligible players? Although this may make it too complex and even unbalance the original objective. I can see a whole bunch of problems with the system but they might be outweighed by the youth development benefits…just a thought. Edited by Mr Flea, Sep 10 2009, 02:33 PM.
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| Bada Bing | Sep 10 2009, 04:30 PM Post #10 |
El Crack
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If you check out gbbasketball.net, a Serbian guy has kindly taken the time to give us a little insight into his views on GB development and some of his own experiences Interesting to listen from the country that does it better than anybody else bar none |
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| dave f | Sep 10 2009, 06:10 PM Post #11 |
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All-Star
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I wouldnt say that minutes should be guaranteed. they should only ever be earned. What should be implemented immediately is a requirement that each club pays a proportion of its salary bill (say 15%) to GB qualified under 23 players. Or alternatively a set figure (say £15000 per year) to those players. If they were forced to do that clubs would soon be out looking for the very best available talent and in theory that talent would be good enough to play. and this is not solely a BBL thing because BPB should also be charged with talent identification and should be putting forward a talented athlete subsidy system as is in place for other sports. They should be matching BBL investment in these kids pound for pound as opposed to ploughing everything into a 2 month summer campaign. Finally I would love anyone to go up to Fab Flournoy (or Andrew bridge or Atiba Lyons or Rob yanders or anyone else) and tell them that they are semi-pros. Edited by dave f, Sep 10 2009, 09:00 PM.
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| GRoberts | Sep 10 2009, 11:33 PM Post #12 |
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 Of course not, those men are basketball gods!  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To clarify (although it did seem kinda obvious), semi-pro was an assessment of the BBL as a whole, not just a few top names. To my mind, semi-pro implies that some players are of professional standard while others are not. Not necessary half and half (I notice you only choose some of the better players from the better teams in the BBL), but you get the picture. At least I hope you do? 
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| MarkE | Sep 11 2009, 01:11 AM Post #13 |
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Thinking along those lines, how about if the BBL and BPB ran an annual draft camp for British U23 talent. It could be run at a University affiliated to a BBL club to save costs, maybe on a rotational basis, where British passport U23 players could apply (or maybe invited in some cases) to showcase their talent to earn a place on a BBL roster and bring themselves to the attention of the GB coaches. A few ideas for rules spring to mind: Each BBL club must take 1 or maybe 2 picks Each club must set aside a set amount which is matched by BPB as in investment in their future |
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| dave f | Sep 11 2009, 09:18 AM Post #14 |
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All-Star
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Why not? That seems potentially workable. The point of this thread is for people to provide possible answers to the problem as to development of U23s not to run down what we have already. Very rarely does one person have all the answers so we are looking for collaboration here. The total wage bill of BBL clubs in our professional league is over £1 million pounds per year, lets find some practical solutions to the problems of UK talent pathways to the pro game. Anyone else? |
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| Tommy Tiger | Sep 11 2009, 10:51 AM Post #15 |
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Imagine being the GB U23 prospect that is drafted to the Capitals! You'll get game time, for sure, but will it really improve you? |
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| dave f | Sep 11 2009, 11:26 AM Post #16 |
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All-Star
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players could not be contractually compelled to go. All their other options would remain available. It does not have to be a draft, it could simply be a free market with the clubs competing for the best prospects. and the capitals question again would simply bring us back to the importance of minimum standards, which remains an entirely different but equally important question. |
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| Brucie24 | Sep 11 2009, 12:36 PM Post #17 |
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There are some very interesting ideas being posted here and a collaberation of the best of them should be put forward to BPB/BBL. They (BPB) held a forum in Manchester a while back to try and listen to everyone's input so i'm sure they'd be interested. Can a moderator forward these ideas to them? |
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| dave f | Sep 11 2009, 12:46 PM Post #18 |
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All-Star
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yes but lets not stop here : we had a 7 page thread on the nothingness that is the BBA. there are always people queuing up to criticise. Lets have a proportion of that energy put into reasoned and sensible suggestions for going forwards. There must be more people with views out there? |
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| ko25 | Sep 11 2009, 01:08 PM Post #19 |
Jenson Button 2009 World Champion!!!
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I think another issue is to look at is the standard and development of coaches I'm exactly sure how younger players development you are think of just u23? If you look at a lot of clubs the u14 coaches are just a joke most are actors playing at being a basketball coach or just rookie coaches learning where as they should be guy who know what they are doing and can teach the necessary fundamentals. Also I know of a number of coaches who have never even seen a top level BBL OR EBL game, how can anyone be capable of producing a high standard player if they don't even know what the standard is? |
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| Number6 | Sep 11 2009, 01:14 PM Post #20 |
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Sixth Man
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I like the 15% of players budget argument, being paid to U/23s who are eligible to play for GB , and it would be great to tie this into a link with Universities/Colleges. And yes let's do more than just talk about it, those with influence should push this pointwith the BBL / EBL BPB |
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Number6, cut me in half & it will say SHARKS SUPPORTER all the way through | |
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| yeoman | Sep 11 2009, 01:18 PM Post #21 |
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Sixth Man
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a pro league with a total wage bill of 1million will not be able to retain the top players. the numbers don't stack up. the best way forward for a broad based type of partnership will be a development league scheme aimed at cultivating talent. that make sense as being a true professional league takes money and business acumen. perhaps something like the BBA invests X per year toward a development league (BBL) and BPB doing the same strenthening the BBL. major markets will comprise the pro league and the smaller markets control development (leicester, guildford, etc) this way everyone has their interests served and roles defined. also, expertise could be shared as well as advice on marketing, perhaps contribution toward televison production. just some constructive ideas dave. |
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| Noel Edmonds | Sep 11 2009, 01:20 PM Post #22 |
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If you would like to make suggestions then fine, but try and refrain from being so antagonistic, yeoman. |
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| dave f | Sep 11 2009, 01:27 PM Post #23 |
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All-Star
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its over £1 million (not £1million) - it was my best guess. secondly every penny spent has to be earned and the reality is we are a minority sport in competition with football, non league and lower division football, rugby, rugby league, cricket and niche sports like speedway : a multi million pound `pro` league would simply be a black hole for money. (as has been proved before). As such it is not an option, indeed if it was we would not need all these suggestions as we could just use Barcelonas budget and set up a Spanish style, money no object system. As ever yeoman you demonstrate an unfortunate ignorance as to the financial reality of running professional basketball in the UK. |
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| wildcat | Sep 11 2009, 01:34 PM Post #24 |
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Agree that there's some interesting thinking here. Idea of a 'draft' is certainly creative. Bit away from big clubs starting early to develop players, though (such as the Serbian focus on 14/15-year olds in the club). What I think is new is the BBL's commitment to this and of trying to find ways in which to take financial and coaching responsibility for talent. Yes. There's a need for participation focus and getting numbers up, but there needs to be an elite pathway for talent and that is just too dispersed. Some thoughts: 1. Paid youth coaches and real coaching career paths. Too few ex-players with a talent for coaching are involved in coaching. There is no real coaching path. It costs money and commitment. Parents proliferate the coaching ranks and they often have to start from scratch. It is very difficult to be a coach in this country with a normal full-time job and then unpaid youth coaching. What seems to happen is that coaches are involved in basketball in the community, basketball development officer, or something like that, or they are parents. 2. BBL clubs appoint a 'director of youth' with responsibilty for bringing youngster through, setting up scouting networks, overseeing the youth coaches. 3. Somehow find some link (and sense) in all the various 'academies' programmes, special status programmes, national league elite teams, etc. The various colleges, academies, schools, etc. play in very different competitions, always clashing with each other, and no real national profile. Again, as in a lot of basketball, there appears to be fundamental separation between the various governing bodies here. Have elite competitions from U15 and even separation from U13. There is too much a mix of participation and elite in all levels. The BBL and top EBL leagues should be leading this youth competition in elite leagues. Improvement will only happen through high level competition. The EB youith premier leagues of U16 and U18, with an addition of conference teams (who can compete for the same play offs as the premier league team) creates, just does not work in creating weekly top level competition. Our competition model is still focuses too much on increasing participation rather than producing exceptional overall talent. 4. Similar to Spain, run an U20s top competition via 4 tournaments, to be organized by BBL//EBL clubs, with complete financing. As I've said before, high level competition at practice and at games, playing up in age groups, top coaching, foreign elite tournaments, and a serious financial commitment can produce great results. |
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| yeoman | Sep 11 2009, 01:36 PM Post #25 |
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Sixth Man
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i'm dead serious. just trying some constructive comments. dave i may not know the details and realities of running a league and will leave that up to BBA. however, i do know the meaning of partnership and give/take. if a development structure was partially funded by a governing body and the pro league, the development league benefits as it receives much need financial support which can be used to strenghten development, market in niche areas, etc. BPB gets the chance to build a pipeline of developed players, the BBA gets some british talent which they can pay them a "living wage" and everybody benefits. see, i'm trying my best to extend ideas where everyone benefits and is my olive branch to you dave. thoughts? |
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