| WrestleMania 23: Official Event Thread; Batista/Taker, Michaels/Cena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 18 2007, 12:28 PM (533 Views) | |
| dawsey28 | Apr 1 2007, 07:54 PM Post #26 |
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Ariel's chattel
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Dave Batista v Undertaker
New Breed v ECW Originals
Donald Trump & Bobby Lashley v Vince McMahon & Umaga
Melina v Ashley
John Cena v Shawn Micheals
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 1 2007, 08:56 PM Post #27 |
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CMV1
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Well, I thought this was a very good event. In terms of it being a great PPV that ranks up there w/ better PPVs (like this year's Rumble, for instance), I don't think it reached that kind of level. However, it was still a very enjoyable Wrestlemania that I liked better than last year's. We got 3, four-star matches by my account... HBK-Cena was a little slow to start, but it was great at the end...**** Batista-Taker was the surprise of the night...a fantastic match for them. Bats really stepped up tonight and I'm proud of that guy... MITB III was very good, as well... All three were equally **** for different reasons... |
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| Snowman | Apr 1 2007, 09:00 PM Post #28 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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it was a good event...however, the distriubution of the matches killed all the momentum. |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 1 2007, 09:08 PM Post #29 |
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CMV1
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I disagree, SNow... I think the distribution of matches kept everything nicely spaced out. Good match...bad match...good match...bad match...capped off with a good match... Past Manias have peaked too early...this one was nicely spaced out... |
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| Crim | Apr 1 2007, 09:12 PM Post #30 |
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The 2nd era of Y2J has begun
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They also could have made the New Breed/ECW Originals match alot more entertaining and longer then they did. Good thing the womens match and Khali/Kane match were short, though. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Donald closeline Vince.... and then get stunned by Stone Cold. :rock: |
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| The Sandman | Apr 1 2007, 09:32 PM Post #31 |
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2007 ACC Champions
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I dug the show except for one thing: I'm sick and fucking tired of Cena using that weak ass fucking submission move to win matches. The fact that Michaels tapped to that piece of shit sickens me. I'd rather see him "pass out from the pain" or get pinned after an FU than tap to that crime against humanity. Aside from that, damn good show. MITB was damn good. Taker/Batista was better than expected. The two bathroom matches were kept to managable lengths. Sorry if I sound overly pissed, but top notch performers tapping to substandard finishers leaves a bad taste in my mouth :ko: |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 1 2007, 09:43 PM Post #32 |
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CMV1
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Cena is the man, though. He is the unquestionable top guy in the company. At least by giving him that submission, his offense is more diverse. I find it more entertaining to watch Cena's matches now that he's got that submission finisher...it keeps things more interesting... |
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| Snowman | Apr 1 2007, 09:59 PM Post #33 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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^^NO! To have John Cena...the new age Hulk Hogan make 3.....3! Former Champions, 3 of the biggest names of all time tap out to that POS finisher in one year is rediculous! Benoit should never tap out to anything...period...he is a submission expert...it is against his character. Triple H tapping at Mania last year, fine...whatever... But now HBK tapping to that THIS YEAR!? Mania should have gone like this.... Benoit/MVP ECW Match MITB Kane Khali Lashley vs. Umaga Women's WWE Title WHC |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 1 2007, 11:02 PM Post #34 |
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CMV1
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Why should it have gone like that? |
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| Snowman | Apr 1 2007, 11:15 PM Post #35 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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Benoit vs MVP is a good starting match...it gets people going. ECW match was short but sweet...nothing great...keep the show moving MITB....The match of the night, reaching a peak Kane/Khali...sucked balls...nice little food/beer break for folks... Lashley/Umaga....bring people back from the shirt vendors, people come back up from the groggy match of Khali Women's match....total shit...and speaking of shit, it's a great time to go to the bathroom before the two title matches. WWE match....it was good....but no one wanted to see cena win....therefor if he is going to...YOU DON'T END THE F'N SHOW WITH IT!!!! WHC match....Taker and Batista had a really good match, and it has the fan favorite winning the title....IE leaving the crowd happy as they leave. Did you not see the swarms of people leaving right after HBK tapped?! They were pissed off...and after spending 400 bucks for tickets...I would be too! |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 1 2007, 11:31 PM Post #36 |
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CMV1
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I see your logic, but I think the way they booked it was the safest way to go... No one could've dreamed Taker vs. Batista being as good as it was, thus they didn't dare put it on last. They put what was supposed to be the match of the night on last...and that was a good decision. I liked the way they booked it, personally, but I can see why you wanted otherwise... |
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| Snowman | Apr 1 2007, 11:44 PM Post #37 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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It was a good ppv... But...let's face facts, short of the spot on the table....the main event was the same as last year. Cena with his usual offense, then making the crowd favorite tap out...No one wants to pay 400 bucks to see the guy they hate beat their fav with a terrible submission for the 2nd year in a row. |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 1 2007, 11:48 PM Post #38 |
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CMV1
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Yeah, but you had to expect it... So, I wonder who Cena main-events against next year? I've gotten to the point where I don't mind Cena as long as he performs like he did tonight. I've found my comfort zone with him, in that as long as he's out there putting on very good matches with Edge, HHH, Umaga, HBK, etc...I'll be content with him as champion. I wonder if Batista now gets a reprieve from the dog house and earns some backstage respect. He did exactly what he said he was going to do...he stole the show. Well, Taker did, but Batista definitely kept up his end of the bargain. I still think it's a good idea to move in a new direction on SD (i.e. move Lashley back there and add Kennedy to the mix more often), but Batista as a full-fledged heel could be a great foil for John Cena in the summer months. I'm excited coming out of Mania...I'm pumped to see what's next... |
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| Snowman | Apr 2 2007, 12:00 AM Post #39 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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I am sick of seeing Cena with the title...he has held it 20 out of 24 months. That's not a good thing in today's wrestling. People want to see others holding the belt, people want to see tooth and nail competition for the title...but there is no mystery in who will win everytime....Cena will....that's not entertaining....that's not fun. People got sick of Hogan winning every time. That's why wrestling took a header in the early-mid nineties....if they keep doing this with Cena...they are gonna stall out again. |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 2 2007, 12:43 AM Post #40 |
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CMV1
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Odd...you are exactly right, but I still don't mind that he's champ. I honestly haven't even noticed he's been champ that long (probably has at least a small part to do with the fact that I'm still enjoying that Triple H is NOT champ)... |
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| Q-BZ | Apr 2 2007, 07:22 AM Post #41 |
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I thought this was a good PPV, but not "WOW AMAZING GREAT" PPV. A decent WM. I'm more with Sandman and Snowman on this: It's not even about Cena winning all the time, which is easily in Hogan land now where it's simply becoming boring, predictable and "who do we line up next to take a dive before Almighty Cena?" I just don't care anymore. That's one of several reasons that's been going on for a while now that's basically relegated me down to being barely a casual wrestling fan these days. What makes it worse is: It's not just about Cena winning ALL the time, but HOW it happens: The STFU makes the People's Elbow look like genius from Einstein himself: The STFU just has to go. It should never have started in the first place. I'd rather see the FU or see Cena vary off to a Dominator variant or something like that. Cena is not a technical wrestler so why not end this pretense of using a lame ass submission move that people ridiculously oversell to? Just pin the guy after a power move and finish it. I think HBK and Taker both should have walked out champions. I think not having HBK win is a critical mistake. I kind of thought that might be the theme of the night: The HOF guys get one last glory lap for old times' sake. They should. But I guess not. I guess Kennedy will come over to RAW, possibly as soon as tonight, to either face Cena at Backlash and be the next scrub to go down, or they may have an HBK rematch. Usually Backlash's RAW main event is a WM rematch. We'll see. SummerSlam will probably see Cena vs. either Kennedy or Batista, if I had to guess. Backlash will probably either be a rematch with HBK or some slight variation, maybe with a third person like Edge. Who knows? Batista-Undertaker: This underscored yet again something most of us have said since day one: You need to have Batista in the ring against more experienced and vastly superior talent to keep the illusion alive. Watching this match really amazed me and underscored just how long it's been since Batista was in a high profile feud with some really great talent. This is easily the best any of us have seen from Batista since the feud with Triple H. I think by now Batista should have earned everyone's respect to a point. Everyone knows what you're going to get with him: There's only one way you're going to get the best out of him and that's what I've spelled out above. If you don't hold to that tight criteria with Batista? You're in trouble. It sends me a little message that they took the belt off of Batista. A Deadman Title run can add something fresh to the product, especially if they let him kind of "show up" whenever he wants, wherever he wants. I'm glad the belt is off Batista myself. Taking the belt off Batista may be the best thing they could do for him right now. It's less pressure and he can vacillate along the midcard and upper midcard areas and possibly start feuds across other shows. It takes the spotlight off of him a little bit and that's a VERY good thing. It gives you more slack and grace when you make the mistake of putting him in feuds with equal or lesser talent to what he has. It's a good move all the way around. ^^ This is the same kind of logic that should have seen HBK get the title. How do you do better on the WWE rosters than Taker and HBK, in terms of talent and experience? They are the best. Period. This would have been a nice press of the reset button and you could push both of these guys into new, high profile feuds to get some other talent over and possibly a chance at the belt. They can carry a broomstick and put them over. It doesn't matter that Batista lost. It matters that he was made to look a billion dollars courtesy of a grade A, first class Undertaker carry job. It also helped that Batista himself was clearly as motivated as we've probably ever seen. But these things wax and wane. Back to Cena: I don't dislike Cena, but I'm simply sick and tired of the same old thing. That's not his fault. He gets booked, he does what he's told and so do his opponents. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall to see if HBK had been willing to job to Cena or was ordered to do so and did. You just wonder about that... Of course, it can't be worse than HBK jobbing to Hogan at SummerSlam. That's an all time disgrace that should never have happened. I thought we were in the day and age where a "Hogan" type situation could never happen again. Hell, that hurt the product back then. Roddy Piper still should have had a win over Hogan. Make it believable. Make Hogan have SOME kind of vulnerability. It all loses meaning after a point when someone simply is booked as invincible. The other problem, like Hogan, is: They're running out of quality opponents for Cena. I know Snow doesn't like this, but it's a hard reality and it's true: SD has become little more than the training mill to build guys up and then send them over to RAW to become eventual Cena fodder. We might even see a little bit of that with ECW. Kennedy is the next in line at some point. The MITB win assures us of that unless we get a rematch with Taker. That's not out of the question. I think Kennedy is coming over to RAW, probably by SummerSlam time, so he can lose to Cena and then be sent right back to the midcard and probably wasted on RAW like a lot of other talent that SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE CARD LAST NIGHT! No Shelton, No CCC...get real. Thinking about who Cena main events against for the next year really just make my head hurt. They're running out of gas. I really think they made a critical error not having HBK win the title last night. Cena has already beaten just about everyone of note, and some of them several times: Jericho, Angle, Taker, Big Show, HBK, HHH, Umaga, Edge, Orton, Eddie before the big Cena face turn and super push, Benoit... Did he beat Kane? I honestly can't remember. You get my point. There just isn't anyone left that's big time. I think you have Batista, Kennedy, and then you either have to invent some other piece of nonsense for short term like an Umaga or...you know it's coming...Cena-Khali. That'll be Cena's "Andre the Giant" and you know they're going to book and chat it up like that, although Khali clearly couldn't tie Andre's shoes even on his worst day. And Cena wil win all that, too.
I agree, but now I wonder if they can turn Batista heel after all? I think you're going to see the fans really pop for him like we haven't seen in a while. This match had to have turned some heads last night with the fans and backstage. We need go no further than this forum to see that: You're someone who constantly posts things like "Batista blows" just as recently as last week, so this indeed high praise if it even earned your respect. You've been one of the biggest Batista haters since day one, so if it's come to this? They may need to keep him face. But we all know it's just going to mean more fodder for Cena to squash and beat, so I really don't care at this point. For me, it's full Hulk Hogan syndrome at this point: I just don't care anymore. I grew up watching Hulk and I had the "benefit" of being a young kid and markish to a point, but even back then? Everyone knew Hogan would win and you just got kind of tired of it after a point. And like Snowman said:
It was with Hogan, right down to the Hulk up, finger point, punches, boot, legdrop pin and now it's the same with Cena down to that God awful STFU. Lashley-Umaga: It's what I expected. I hope this gets Vince off TV for a while. He's been taking up too much air time that should be going to the talent. I'm glad to see that Lashley is finally getting some support and interest from the fans. I still think he'd make a hell of a Lesnar like monster heel, even more than Batista would, but they're probably smart keeping things the way they are. If Kennedy goes to RAW to face Cena like I'm expecting, they'll have a heel void and we may very well see Batista turn...depending on the fan reactions. ;) I agree with Snow that the order of the matches was a little suspect. I probably would have started off with Benoit-MVP and have the MITB close out the "first half" or thereabouts. Khali vs. Kane was a disgrace, even at 5 minutes. I'm dreading the rest of this year as I know we're probably headed for a Khali-Taker rematch. I wouldn't be surprised if they have Khali take the title off of Taker at some point. You heard it here first. So enjoy the good feeling while it lasts. 2007 will see Cena vs. Khali and a Taker-Khali rematch so brace your eyes and stomachs now. Khali is just so terrible I'm without words. I'm sorry Kane had to basically be squashed like this, but I think we all knew this was inevitable since he's taking time off for real injuries. It is nice to not have HHH as champ, but you can't tell me he wasn't missed on the lineup last night. I missed him, Angle, and Eddie and Rey big time. Their abscence was felt. Make no mistake about it. Batista Taker > HBK-Cena. Who would have thought? The first order of business that's overdue that needs to happen on RAW tonight is getting the tag belts off Cena and HBK and back into circulation. I really don't care how they do it. Just get it done. This RAW is in trouble tonight: You have a new episode of 24 on but even bigger than that: You have the NCAA basketball final at 9 of OSU vs. UF. It's not even close, folks. |
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| Chad Matthews | Apr 2 2007, 08:51 AM Post #42 |
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CMV1
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Well, I don't really know why I don't agree with you guys...I mean I guess I see why you feel that way, but I honestly can't tell you why I'm not tired of Cena. Maybe I've just gotten used to it...Well, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that he has improved so much. The guy is putting on some really good matches. I can't remember the last time Cena had a bad main-event match. He's got two consecutive four-star Mania main-events, he had the feud of the year with Edge in '06, and even had a 4-star match with Umaga. I guess it comes down to this...as long as he's getting it done in the ring, I'm not concerned about him dominating the main-event. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Cena is easily the most over superstar in the business. Him being at the top for perhaps another year w/o any variation might become overkill, which is why I suggest he lose the title to a Kennedy (or someone) in the summer and then start a chase that gets him to Mania 24. Until he fails to be the most over superstar, though, I still find that his presence in the main-event is not stale. Diverse crowd reactions continue to keep him interesting to me... Guys like Triple H, HBK...they haven't been squashed. It's not like Cena mowed through them and they'll never get a rematch. Trips is still Trips and he'll get his rematch with Cena in due time. HBK was never about winning the title...just getting the chance to main-event Mania one more time. I can't say that it ever crossed my mind that he'd win the title. Why should we have expected it? Cena is the star of the business and HBK maintained his secondary role by helping Cena to another very good Mania main-event... Cena still has Orton, Kennedy, Kane, Lashley, Trips (again), Edge (again)...He's still got plenty of opponents he can face. This is no different than Triple H being in all the main-events...it's just a different guy...a new gear in the ever-changing machine that is pro-wrestling... |
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| Q-BZ | Apr 2 2007, 09:10 AM Post #43 |
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That's probably it. I think we all have. Some of us just are more resigned to it. For me, I don't have any emotion about it at all. I'm apathetic. I just don't care anymore, which is arguably worse than the emotion that Sand and Snowman have on the subject. Apathy is the last response anyone in the business of pro wrestling or entertainment wants from their fans and that's where I'm at and that's where a growing numbers of others are getting to as well.
I agree. The matches are entertaining to a point, even though there's zero suspense involved and you know what the finish will look like every time.
I'm glad you're satisfied. Like I said, I walked away from last night feeling fairly good about things, for the most part. It certainly could be a lot worse. Cena seems to have shaken off some of the lazines that Cav, me, and some others were complaining about several months ago. As a result, I hear mostly cheering for Cena now vs. the almost 50/50 reactions he was getting last year around ECW time and through most of that summer and early fall.
All true.
No one expected it. Look at our prediction thread. Everyone and their mother knew Cena was going to win this match, just like he has every other match. Some of us just kind of hoped for the improbable. There's a difference. ;)
All true, I guess, but why not mix it up a bit? You're basically agreeing with me anyways: Everyone lines up to put Cena over. That's all there is to it. Take it or leave it.
Very repetitive. He's already beaten everyone there at least once except for Kennedy, Lashley, and Batista. FWIW, this is still better than Triple H circa 2003 by far. |
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| Xtremegirly789 | Apr 2 2007, 10:11 AM Post #44 |
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yes a girl likes wrestling...
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Ok so what did i see last night.. Jeff Hardy broke his ass Donald Trump attempt to punch vince... Vince lose his hair.. A disturbing dance party the sloppiest finish in a womans match... ever AND HBK TAP OUT TO THE STFU... for f***s sake. I agree with snow, everyone was completely dead after Taker vs Batista.... That match should have been last, imagine how cool it owuld have been if Taker ended the PPV with his haqnd up in the air and all the flames. I had about 20 people at my party, and the main complaintes were that Cena mader HBK tap, and that the line up was stupid. I can see the logic in it, but i really think they ruined it. Anyway. TAKER WON!!! that made my night :D |
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| Q-BZ | Apr 2 2007, 10:14 AM Post #45 |
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^^ That's a pretty good summation of the whole thing. ;) |
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| Snowman | Apr 2 2007, 12:40 PM Post #46 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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Here is the problem....unlike Hulk in the 80's squashing everyone....TODAY'S wrestling fan will not stick around and take it. We have access to every other wrestling federation in the world. Cena winning again is unacceptable...to me this is worse than when Trips was champ. Why? You ask.... It's simple. At least when Trips was champ, you had the possibilities of all these differant faces winning. You knew that Trips 4 out of 5 times was gonna lose at Mania. With Cena, Cena is the face, so we are stuck in this weird void where Vince thinks he is giving us what we want with the babyface winning....but it's not. Cena has squashed everyone he has come in contact with...leaving him very few options at this point. The crowd hates him, but not in the way they hate a bad guy....they hate him because he is Babyface Cena and he is being shoved down our throats. If you re-watch the crowd after Cena wins....they get up, and they leave....they didn't cheer and watch him celebrate, they didn't even take the time to boo him...they simply got up in disgust...some flipping him off....and walked out of the arena. When the main event ends at mania, people should be taking pictures and cheering for the champ....half the crowd had already left when they shot off the confetti. Bottomline, what you are going to see is a revolt against Cena...it's kinda like that old movie "Drop Dead Fred" If you stop paying attention to him...he will dissappear. Same thing here, people are going to turn on Raw, but as soon as Cena comes out *CLICK*....ratings drop.....mark my words, it will eventually happen. They did it with Trips in 2004-5 they simply stopped watching WWE. The only way to salvage Cena, is the way they salvaged Sting during the monday night war. Have Cena flip out and quit because of the fans...let the bad guys run the show while Cena sits in the VIP sections watching the goodguys get worked....each week have him act like he is struggling not to jump down and helpe em out.....then after about 3 months or so....finally let him help. But you know what? As bad as seeing Cena win AGAIN was....it was no where near as bad as that women's match was. WWE needs to wake up and realize that Women's Wrestling is dead! It's life was pulled when Trish left. YOU have Victoria, Mickie, and Jillian, all of which can wrestle.....yet you go with Ashley...who doesn't know a headlock from a wet fart, and Melina who single handedly dropped mickie on her head twice in two matches. So I ask you....Khali/Kane aside....why did we need to have this waste of time...this void of 5 mins I will never get back?! Because Vince is so fucking certain that we wrestling fans are such nerdy perverts, that we just cant go one ppv without T & A. Why couldn't we have had a match with Flair and Carlito??? Why couldn't we have a fatal 4 way for the World tag titles??? Why couldn't we have had a cruiserweight title match??? Why couldn't the longest reigning tag champs in a decade be on the card??? BECAUSE VINCE THINKS WE WANT TO SEE WOMEN WRESTLE!!!!!! :mad: On a seperate note... This isn't cool...I hated Shawn Michaels forever for doing this to Bret, now Taker too?! Last night after Undertaker won the World Title he told the referee to “get him out of here”, referring to Batista. |
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| Q-BZ | Apr 2 2007, 01:48 PM Post #47 |
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LOL, which ones?! TNA?! Japan (this is some good stuff but who really knows how to access it and when.) For most wrestling fans, at least in the west, right or wrong, the big game now is WWE or nothing. The WWE knows this all too well. All we're seeing is the lethargy and arrogance that most of us predicted would happen day and date when they bought out everyone else. I really want to see things like UFC and stuff like that really take off. Those are the closest things we have now to potential and very real outside threats for the same kind of audience, by and large, that watches pro wrestling.
Disagreed. Everyone knew, with the possible exception of Goldberg, that the likes of a Bubba Ray Dudley, Booker T, and God knows who else that I can't remember now weren't going to win. Scott Steiner? I'm sorry, but there's no way anyone can tell me that we're seeing worse than Triple H 2003. At least not yet.
Hmmm... not sure about that. I know he was injured and missed a few didn't he? I honestly can't remember at this point. Anyways, variety is the spice of life. Mix things up a little bit. That's all I ever ask for. That's all I want in regards to Cena.
It's even worse for the ECW folks. Did you read and see the crowd for that match? That's sad.
Why should he? Everything is going his way in and out of character. I'd like to see something like this since bland "vanilla goodie two shoes" Cena has bored me for months. Dr. of Thuganomics, let loose on RAW, would kick ass. That last heel turn for Rock, as another example, was all he needed to "set things right" with the fans.
I couldn't agree with you more. I've never been a women's wrestling mark, but even I'll give credit where it's due to the days of Lita vs. Trish and the rest of it and say: It deserves so much better than this. It sickens me, right along with Khali and Boogieman.
I guess. It's about whatever fetish Vince has. They don't care what the fans want because they don't have to. There's no threat from the outside and there probably won't be for quite some time to come.
^^ That really makes me sad and disgusted and angry if that's true. Where did you see that? EDIT: From PWInsider. I really hope that's not true because I will lose a LOT of respect for Undertaker if it is. |
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| Xtremegirly789 | Apr 2 2007, 02:10 PM Post #48 |
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yes a girl likes wrestling...
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Trish vs Lita was the only female feud even worht paying attention too. for real. Well said snow and Q |
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| Snowman | Apr 2 2007, 02:23 PM Post #49 |
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The Snowman Cometh
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I will go back and rewatch Q....I saw Taker say something, he was facing the hard camera at the time... HE DID!!!!! He told the ref almost mouthing it to "Get him outta here" That was not cool :mad: |
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| Xtremegirly789 | Apr 2 2007, 03:43 PM Post #50 |
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yes a girl likes wrestling...
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I say go Taker.. according to all the wrestling autobiogrophies Taker is the most respectful person backsatge. Combin that with the fact tha Batista doesnt give a hist about half the things that go on backstage, and i would understand where hes coming from. Plus Batista was probably supposed to get out of the ring right away, and he has been known for not pulling work in the ring. |
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2:23 AM Jul 11