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| Unit capped version | |
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| Topic Started: May 28 2008, 08:10 AM (66 Views) | |
| [=T=] HawK | May 28 2008, 08:10 AM Post #1 |
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Hey Desecrator, How specific can you make the unit caps for units? I means is it just tanks as a category or is there each specific tank listed or is it tier 1 tier 2 etc.? Here's roughly what I was thinking; 10 Tanks any tier (makes a player have to decide whether to hold off on building and wait for tier 2 / 3 building ability) 10 Buggies, bikes, gun walkers, pitbull 10 support vehicles; harvesters, rigs, outposts, mcv 5 artillery units (Beam cannons, juggernaut) 16 Air units (Scrin have bigger more powerful air units but are penalized slightly by not having extra artillery units which should make things even) 20 Infantry (infantry will now play a much bigger part in the game with limited vehicles) ====================== Why have unit caps? Implementing unit caps dramatically changes gameplay, for the better. The game suddenly requires strategy because you can't just sit back and build ....and build and build and build a huge army then hope your army is bigger than the opposing army. You're also put into a situation where you're afraid to attack without a unit cap because the enemy army could have a huge army and the only way to defend your base is to have an equally big army in your base to defend it. It just makes no sense. A unit cap encourages early game harassment. This is all about sending out an army to slow down an enemy's economy. Destroy a few harvesters, and a refinery. That kind of thing. You only have so many tanks so you may as well use them to annoy your enemy and then you can rebuild a new army again quickly. Again, you're not so worried about a huge enemy army coming at you so you can afford to me more adventurous early game. A unit cap encourages unit variety. A force of ten tanks isn't going to accomplish much against a base with well placed defenses. Therefore you need artillery units to take out the defenses at long range. Your tanks are no longer your do-all units, their role is to protect the other units and destroy enemy units NOT buildings! AA units are more important because you again need to protect your army as it makes a base attack. You'll need the army to stay in one piece to succeed and that means having the right units to deal with infantry, tanks, air units etc. Unit caps bring infantry back into the game. Rocket squads will tip the balance in battles if they support tanks. Up until now most of us probably use the engineers and commandos and then every now and then some infantry like snipers, or hand of nod but now infantry will be the extra units and will become a lot more valuable to a player. The argument against unit caps? The one I've heard most is that CNC was supposed to be about massing tank armies going at it. Well I hate to say it but that just creates a really shallow and predictable gameplay and lacks any vision for how a game could be played. "A good player should hit his opponent before he can make a big army". And then what? Hit him back with a big army of ...yup nothing but tanks. I've played against good players and tried to cripple them or to slow them down but in the end they usually manage to get that big army going and then there's no strategy except them selecting all and clicking attack move on your base. If 1% of the self-professed leet CNC3 gamers can somehow stop the tactic then what about the rest of us? |
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| [=T=] Desecrator | May 29 2008, 03:48 AM Post #2 |
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Hi, The unit cap is unit specific E.G. you can have: GDI: ------ Infantry: ---------- 24 Rifle Squads, 24 Missile Squads, 12 Engineers, 12 Grenade Squads, 12 Sniper Squads, 8 Zone Trooper Squads Ground Vehicles: -------------------- 12 APC, 12 Pitbulls, 12 Harvesters, 8 Predator Tanks, 8 Rigs, 8 MCVs, 6 Mammoths, 6 Juggernaughts Air Vehicles: --------------- 16 Orcas, 16 Firehawks NOD: ------ Infantry: ---------- 24 Militant Squads, 24 Rocket Squads, 12 Saboteur, 12 Fanatic Squads, 12 Black Hand Squads, 8 Shadow Squads Ground Vehicles: -------------------- 12 Attack Bikes, 12 Raider Buggies, 12 Harvesters, 8 Scorpion Tanks, 8 MCVs, 8 Flame Tanks, 8 Stealth Tanks, 6 Beam Cannons, 6 Avatars Air Vehicles: --------------- 16 Venoms, 16 Vertigo Bombers Scrin: ------- Infantry: ---------- 24 Buzzers Squad, 24 Disintegrators Squad, 12 Assimilator, 12 Shock Trooper Squad Ground Vehicles: -------------------- 12 Gun Walkers, 12 Seeker Tanks, 12 Harvesters, 8 Devourers, 8 Corrupters, 6 Annihilator Tripods Air Vehicles: --------------- 16 Storm Riders, 8 MCVs, 8 Planetary Assault Carriers, 6 Devastator Warships This is my idea on the unit caps, we can discuss the amounts. Maybe the Venoms can be 24. Just remember that once an MCV has been deployed you can build another one, I don’t think I will be able to put the same cap on the MCVs and Construction Yards. |
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| [=T=] HawK | May 29 2008, 02:07 PM Post #3 |
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I like those numbers. I don't think the venoms need to increase because they are so easy to crank out compared to Orcas which need a new airfield for every 4 units. Venoms are also too good at all around attack (ground and air) without needing to reload so I think they are fine as the same number as GDI etc. Nod shouldn't be air strong anyway IMO.
I think Scrin may need less air units. 6 devastators do a lot more damage than 6 beam cannons and 8 PAC's will wipe out the current limit on venoms or firehawks. A PAC isn't equal to one venom or firehawk, it's equal to about 3-5. With storm riders (and the Atmospheric Manipulator) in toe as well the scrin will have a huge advantage. How about; 8 Storm Riders, 8 MCVs, 4 Planetary Assault Carriers, 4 Devastator Warships I know I could still do a lot of damage with that lot in the air. Edited by [=T=] HawK, May 30 2008, 11:13 PM.
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| [=T=] HawK | Jun 2 2008, 02:40 PM Post #4 |
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I have been testing the 1.3 Beta v.2 (with unit cap) and the cap seems to work really well. I'm using loads more units and the game is a lot more interesting to play. The tanks and tier 3 ground units all seem to balance out ok but the air units are more complicated. GDI is easily the weakest faction with limited air units because they have to build so many airfields and then the aircraft have to return to the airfields to reload all the time. Nod are balanced fine. Scrin are way too strong in the air with devastors, PAC's, Strom riders and an Atmospheric manipulator making for a really big airforce that can wipe out any venom or Firehawk army in seconds. Maybe if we reduce the amount of Scrin air units (devastator and PACs) we could give them some extra infantry or land vehicles instead. Although that may not be necessary. Screenshot of all the Scrin air units built and ready;  Edited by [=T=] HawK, Jun 2 2008, 04:12 PM.
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| [=T=] Desecrator | Jun 4 2008, 06:11 AM Post #5 |
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I did a test, 2 Venoms (upgraded with lasers) can take out 1 Storm Rider. OK, well 1 Venom was destroyed and the other had about 2 or 3 shots. I was thinking maybe make the Storm Rider cap 12 and the PACs 4 or Storm Rider cap 8 and the PACs 6. What do you think? I can make the changes so you can test it if you want. |
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| [=T=] HawK | Jun 4 2008, 09:15 AM Post #6 |
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I was wondering about that then I have to keep reminding myself that the Scrin also have the Atmospheric Manipulator which chews up venoms and spits them out for breakfast, so I think Scrin are ok right now. I'll test the beta v3 though just to be sure. Scrin are probably still the most powerful in the air but they should be. |
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| [=T=] HawK | Jun 9 2008, 07:50 AM Post #7 |
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I think the Scrin only need 4 devastators and their speed should be reduced to match PACs. They're still too strong with that many. GDI and Nod need to have their Hovercraft and armored transports reduced. Those are some seriously powerful units! Maybe 2 per side? |
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| [=T=] HawK | Jun 11 2008, 11:52 PM Post #8 |
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I totaled the air, ground and infantry units for each faction and Nod has an advantage when it comes to the amount of ground units. They have 60 ground units compared to GDI with 56 and Scrin with 46 (these figures don't include MCV's, harvesters, the new hovercraft or armored transport). NoD have more units types (7) which is why it happens. GDI and Scrin have 5 combat units. I would suggest reducing NoDs Flame tanks to 4 instead of 8 and that will put them level with GDI for units. The scrin should be lower in ground units because they have superior air units. scrin are also lower in Infantry 72 compared to 92 for both other factions. Maybe give them a 15 more buzzers and 5 Disintegrators? That will help with balance and not stop players from docking buzzers to other units. |
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| [=T=] HawK | Jun 12 2008, 11:05 AM Post #9 |
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Bumping this in case you didn't see it Desecrator. 
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| [=T=] HawK | Jun 13 2008, 01:49 PM Post #10 |
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Why only 4 devourer tanks in 1.3? Was it a mixup between Devourers and Devastators? I posted before saying that 4 devastators would be good, but 1.3 has 6 of them but only 4 devourers. |
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