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| Accuracy In Information-petsmart; Advocacy-Responsible Husbandry | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 31 2006, 03:11 PM (1,163 Views) | |
sully
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Oct 31 2006, 03:11 PM Post #1 |
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Thanks FNESR for letting me post this thread. I am new here. I came with an agenda. One that i hope is discussed and dealt with in a respectful, even polite fashion. Responsible fishkeeping is the agenda item. Accuracy In Information is the rallying cry. Sending letters to PetSmart is the desired action. Our passion has seen a fundamental shift in how fish are sold to the hobby and the general public. The dynamic has changed. The days of hanging out at the lfs are gone—as are many of the local fish stores. Tropical Fish have become a general consumer product. Bred at farms, shipped across continents in bulk, and distributed through mass merchandisers. Responsible husbandry appears to have taken a back seat to margins and profit. The information provided to hobbyists is often wrong and misleading. The aquaria established are artificial environments. Captive environments. Created with little or no understanding of the needs on their inhabitants. When health issues erupt—as they always do—the consumer often returns to the source of the problem seeking advice to solve the mystery of diseased, dying, and dead fish. The retailers sell a temporary fix in the form of this medication or that. They also sell more fish. Fish that are destined to meet the same end as their predecessors, It is a problem. Many of us have spent year’s on-line offering advice to hobbyists to correct the problems they encounter. We break down the inch per gallon myth. We destroy the surface area stocking calculations. We help others understand the true nature and characteristics of their fish. We talk about tank size, stocking requirements and décor. We spend our time teaching responsible husbandry. The problems at the retail level encompass every aspect of fishkeeping. Products are sold and profits generated because of the misinformation provided at the first and most fundamental step of fishkeeping: The purchase of livestock. Consumers trust retailers. They rely on retailers to help them do what is right. That trust is what permits the perpetuation of problems. Problems for the hobbyist. Profits for the retailers. Accuracy In Information. It starts at the tanks in the retail environment. Point-Of-Purchase Signage purportedly displays everything the new and less knowledgeable hobbyist needs to know to care for their fish. Too often the information is simply wrong. Or, at the very least misleading. This information is the baseline for tank stocking and fish care utilized by both the consumer and the armies of retail staff when discussing and keeping fish. It is a small part of the problem. But, it is an easily isolated and defined problem. And, it is a very visible problem. Members of several on-line communities have come together to ask all keepers of fish to help solve this problem. We are asking experienced fishkeepers to help the less knowledgeable by simply letting their voice be heard by retailers. We are asking fishkeepers to utilize e.mail and snail mail to send letters asking that this misinformation be corrected. We are asking that a very specific retailer be the target of the letter campaign. Not because they are irresponsible. Rather, because they are the leader in the retail Pet industry. They are publicly committed to the promotion of Responsible Husbandry and Animal Welfare. We think they will listen. We think they will take the steps to correct the problem in their stores. And, when they do—other retailers will more willingly follow. Send letters to PetSmart. www.noclownsinacube.net is a site we have established to assist people in understanding our goals and objectives. At the same time it will help keep the activities in a public eye. Take the time to visit the site. You will see sample letters that can be utilized. You will find mailing and e.mail addresses. You can see the responses from PetSmart as they occur. And, you will be able to share your ideas for what is required to accomplish the first and future steps to establish a retail environment that promotes Responsible Fishkeeping. www.noclownsinacube.net |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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fnesr
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Oct 31 2006, 06:24 PM Post #2 |
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....Beeracuda....
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I don't have petsmart or the large pet chains over here in Aust but I like the way you are approaching this (ie. singling out petsmart not in a negative way for bad practice but because they are one that shows potential to be influenced). I hope this does work out well, I know I have answered many questions on the net starting with "petsmart told me....". I've also seen people argue against groups of very experienced fishkeepers with "but petsmart says .....". |
![]() ![]() <left><a href="http://webfish.top-site-list.com/vote2.html"target="_blank"> <IMG SRC="http://webfish.top-site-list.com/images/voteimage/webfish-2.gif" border=0></a><a href="http://www.aquarank.com/in.php?id=fnesr" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.aquarank.com/image.php?id=fnesr" alt="The Top Aquarium Fish Sites" border="0"></a></left> | |
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ZombieSlayer
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Nov 2 2006, 06:33 PM Post #3 |
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JD Master
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Never been in a Petsmart. Now PetCo is a different story. The one where I live is probably one of the best out of the entire chain. I've personally educated the new fish personel (my fish lady retired ) about most of the fish they stock. The management has taken to this quite well, well enough to send a letter to corperate.So it can be done. It's a long tedious road ahead no doubt, but it can be done. |
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240G tank with 1 oscar and 3 bala sharks and 2 raphael catfish 50G tank with a 6" male JD | |
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sully
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Nov 3 2006, 01:50 AM Post #4 |
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i think it will be long and tedious as well. But, it will only be accomplished if everybody pitches in and send letters--lol. And, it is certainly not an effort to bash any retailer. we are hoping that everybody recognizes the good things petsmart does promoting responsible husbandry and humane treatmetn of animals. and the way they support the effort through their charity. A dignified, respectful approach is what we are hoping for. our site has some sample letters--or write your own. And, we have contact names, street and e.mail addresses to help get the letters focused to a single place. |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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sully
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Nov 10 2006, 03:08 PM Post #5 |
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have you sent your letter this week? we have samples you can use as is--or take bits and pieces and then compose your own--at our site. www.noclownsinacube.net |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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sully
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Dec 2 2006, 12:11 PM Post #6 |
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Linda Scott with PetSmart's Corp Communication department has been sending responses to individuals throughout the course of the week as result of letters and e.mails concerning the need for "Accuracy In Information". It is an interesting e.mail and will be posted in its entirety at www.noclownsinacube.net over the weekend. It was a thoughtful answer. Unfortunately it has created the need for additional help and assistance. We are soliciting photos from hobbyists of tank reared specimens of certain species. here is what we are after: •Clown Loach / Botia macracantha / Specimens in excess of 7"TL •Tin Foil Barb / Barbus schwanenfeldi / Specimens in excess of 8"TL •Green Terror / Aequidens rivulatus / Specimens in excess of 6" TL •Midas Cichlid / Amphilophus citrinellus / Specimens in excess of 8" TL •Oscar Varieties / Astronotus ocellatus / Specimens in excess of 10"TL •Jack Dempsey / Cichlasoma octofasciatum / Specimens in excess of 6"TL •Texas Cichlid / Cichlasoma cyanoguttatum / Speimen in excess of 6"TL We will need to be able to visually verify the TL in the photos. And, information regarding tank size and age of fish would be very beneficial. Our photo gallery link: http://www.noclownsinacube.net/gallery/index.php We need the support of hobbyists to accomplish this. The conversation with retailers must remain an active one. Your help is appreciated. If you have any questions about our effort feel free to PM me. If you are gifted with the camera and have the ability to visually document the TL of your fish, but don't have the specimens we listed above, visit our site. Click on the Retailer v. Reality link. Scroll through the list and find the fish with disparities between the retailers and the species information listed. If you have a species with a disparity of significance, take a photo of that species and upload the photos to our gallery. |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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sully
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Dec 10 2006, 02:51 AM Post #7 |
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Thanks for all your help. Hobbyists coming together in a cooperative spirit supporting a worthwhile effort produces results! Progress is being made. An update of details: We have obviously been sending letters and e.mails. Turns out lots of them. They made it to the desks of the addressees and were routed to the DVM responsible for Quality Assurance. We have spoken with Dr. Saint-Erne. We have exchanged e.mails. The topic of concern that is the common thread of the exchanges is Accuracy In Information as it relates to: •Context of data provided. Point of applicability to the time continuum defined by the life of the particular fish. •Point of Origin. Turns out that the data provided (South America, Africa…) was not intended as consumer data. Rather it is plan-o-gram data for use by store associates when stocking tanks. A bit confusing—lol. •Fish Size. The primary source to be utilized was provided nearly two weeks ago. PETsMART has suggested several secondary sources as well as asking for hobbyist input for additional resources. •Stocking Guidelines. Currently the 1” per gallon rule. They will examine alternative methods. •Tank Size. They recognize clarity of information issue. Currently defined by need at time of purchase. We are striving to achieve a size based upon authoritative resources that describe “typical size achieved in home aquaria”. A tough task. •Additives. Some signage suggests a certain additive. The utility of which is questionable depending upon actual chemistry of source water and changes that may be occurring as a consequence of substrate of other décor. •Care Guide water testing description. •The Care Guides in general. The discussions and correspondence have demonstrated the willingness of PETsMART to include hobbyists and customers in the process. It does not mean that every item people dislike or could argue with will be changed. Rather, the information will be provided in a fashion that is clear to the consumer and is clearly based on “authoritative resources”. We can ask for no better commitment than that. We have more detail, and more detail will be posted over the weekend, than this for viewing and comment on our board. We will select critical passages from additional correspondence exchanged. We will “extract” not “edit” any comments. At the same time the “extracts” will be provided with any commentary required to place them in context. We do not wish to misrepresent or allow individuals to misconstrue the discussions that have occurred. At the same time we have no desire to present verbatim transcripts and copies. PETsMART does have competitive and confidentiality concerns. We will honor those very legitimate concerns. They have fish to sell. We have fish to buy. Open and honest discussions can be held only when the concerns of all parties are respected. The discussions have only bolstered and reaffirmed our respect for PETsMART as a responsible retailer concerned with Responsible Husbandry and the Humane and Ethical treatment of animals. |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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Gerry
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Dec 10 2006, 03:32 AM Post #8 |
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Great stuff, I like
That is a real problem in the hobby I am glad your push on petsmart is having effect, unfortunately we don't have any here, in fact only on chain pet store company and they sell very little fish. However, if one starts good practice more than likely others will follow or loss trade. Again, well done
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![]() <a href="http://www.aquarank.com/in.php?id=fnesr" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.aquarank.com/image.php?id=fnesr" alt="The Top Aquarium Fish Sites" border="0"></a> | |
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sully
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Dec 11 2006, 01:04 PM Post #9 |
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I was happy to start covering Canada. Scotland--a wee bit far. But, if we get good enough who knows--lol. If we get that good and i make it your way, you mate, will be buying pints. |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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Gerry
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Dec 12 2006, 12:45 AM Post #10 |
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No problem mate, though I will be drinking pint of whisky
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![]() <a href="http://www.aquarank.com/in.php?id=fnesr" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.aquarank.com/image.php?id=fnesr" alt="The Top Aquarium Fish Sites" border="0"></a> | |
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sully
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Dec 14 2006, 08:52 AM Post #11 |
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well in that case--single malt. and as a strange update out of context with PETsMART specifically. We are beginning to examine the mechanics of approaching Europe and the UK. Seems a couple of people have asked us how the "template" could be applied. We are still building the template so that might be interesting--lol. And, I have exchanged a couple of messages with a scotsman that seems to think the same way i do. love to give stuff away. and if we can't afford that figure out how to play Robin Hood. Plus i keep planning a trip that is put off for one reason or another -- it is tough to get older and need doctors to fix the parts that are wearing out, lol--to Ireland and England. That visit the home of me ancestors thing and the trip to england to drink guinness with a few irishmen I know there. Who knows. we are going to ride the horse as far as it takes us. |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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Gerry
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Dec 14 2006, 09:45 AM Post #12 |
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I live in the central belt of Scotland and other than Acorn pets who stock about 10 fish and most of them are goldfish, I don't know of any pet superstores. Where is you Scotsman living.
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![]() <a href="http://www.aquarank.com/in.php?id=fnesr" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.aquarank.com/image.php?id=fnesr" alt="The Top Aquarium Fish Sites" border="0"></a> | |
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Coast Runner
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Jan 5 2007, 09:52 PM Post #13 |
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Madam President
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WHOA!!! This is a worry............................................... |
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<a href="http://www.aquarank.com/in.php?id=fnesr" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.aquarank.com/image.php?id=fnesr" alt="The Top Aquarium Fish Sites" border="0"></a> Laugh* Love * Live * Shine ![]() | |
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sully
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Jan 14 2007, 07:21 AM Post #14 |
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A three-part update. Part one deals with PETsMART; part two with help we need; and part three with activities being initiated over the next few weeks. 1. The review process at PETsMART has become very detailed. PETsMART and NCIAC.net will continue to exchange information and thoughts about the accuracy of the content through the next several weeks. To date we can say the fish sizes have shown an incredible change. The information we have seen accurately describes the species being sold. Great job PETsMArt! It is something that PETsMART should be recognized for. A near universal clarification of tank sizes required has occurred. Sizes have been increased to more accurately represent long term needs. In about 1/2 of the instances there is little if any room for disagreement. In the other instances the sizes are typically larger than what exists on current signage--but could still be subjected to a more careful scrutiny by PETsMART. It is our hope that many of the suggested tank sizes are increased. Use of “Salt” has yet to be suggested as a requirement for any species reviewed (that is a change). The people involved with NCIAC.net that have seen the data, reviewed it, and sent back suggestions for improvement are generally encouraged by the results to date. Parts of the process could drag into March. We have to honor corporate confidentiality of this information. Final decisions have not yet been made. As we are able to share detailed information we will. 2. Which brings us to stuff to do--lol. Next up are PetCo, Petland and Walmart. We have some data for each of these retailers. Nothing as comprehensive as what were able to assemble for PETsMART. We need help getting POP Signage data for these companies. Hopefully people here and other sites will once again pitch into the effort and gather data. Our format can be seen at http://www.noclownsinacube.net/fish_chart.html. Copies of the spreadsheet that drove that page can be downloaded from a link at the bottom of the chart--feel free to use our spreadsheet. Any keystroking and re-entry we can avoid is appreciated. This time you can win a yet to be designed NCIAC.net T-Shirt—lol. Hopefully hobbyists help out again. We need to have accurate and comprehensive information to utilize during letter writing and e.mail efforts. We also need to have that information during direct conversation with the companies. Help with this will assist both you other hobbyists in getting a good baseline of information to utilize in the practice of Responsible Husbandry. 3. PetCo. We do have enough data to begin our efforts there. We need more to be as accurate as possible. Within the next 10-14 days we will once again post suggestions that specific types of correspondence be prepared and snail mailed or e-mailed. Hopefully we can once again generate e.mails and letters evidencing the concern shared by the hobbyist market. Hope you all have a Happy and Successful New Year. sully You will see revisions to our site to reflect the progress being made in our attempt to work with retailers. It will take us a week to get those changes made—they will include sample letters you could use in our shared effort. |
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Accuracy in Information Help yourself. Help another hobbyist. www.noclownsinacube.net | |
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Gerry
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Jan 14 2007, 07:54 AM Post #15 |
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Sounds like steady progress,,well done mate
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) about most of the fish they stock. The management has taken to this quite well, well enough to send a letter to corperate.




12:12 AM Jul 12