South Park RPG

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South Park RPG; Don't know if want
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 2 2011, 02:28 AM (949 Views)
Psycho Werekitsune	Dec 4 2011, 03:38 AM Post #16
Part man...part beast...full psycho! Posts: 17,366 Group: All Powerful Deity Member #1 Joined: December 30, 2005	I have a feeling that this will be one of those games where it's aesthetics will be what makes it stand out over whatever it's immitating. Still though, that's just a bare bones summary of how it might work, so we really can't be sure until we see it in action.
	EMBRACE THE NAKED!


-Jacquerel-	Dec 4 2011, 03:40 AM Post #17
Master Posts: 1,082 Group: Elite Member #89 Joined: October 2, 2010	The Raging Zephyr Dec 4 2011, 03:28 AM I suppose, but grabbing directly from other people just sounds like a cop-out. I guess I'd have to see actual evidence to see just how close it resembles other games. wait so you read the word RPG and then thought they'd be doing something original? have you played any RPGs? have you noticed how almost all of them have the same combat system they invented in the first one? Edited by Jacquerel, Dec 4 2011, 03:40 AM.



-Havoc the Tenrec-	Dec 4 2011, 03:54 AM Post #18
Master Posts: 6,709 Group: Elite Member #83 Joined: September 10, 2010	What game "doesn't" copy other games in some way?
	html-initialize: <head> <blinkingtext/"I am growing stronger"</blenked> </endhtml>


-The Raging Zephyr-	Dec 4 2011, 04:12 AM Post #19
The Winds of Change Posts: 1,254 Group: Elite Member #11 Joined: March 7, 2007	Jacquerel Dec 4 2011, 03:40 AM The Raging Zephyr Dec 4 2011, 03:28 AM I suppose, but grabbing directly from other people just sounds like a cop-out. I guess I'd have to see actual evidence to see just how close it resembles other games. have you ever played a board game? have you noticed how almost all of them use pieces and a board, just like the first one? This quote could also be universally translated as "have you eaten sirloin steak? have you noticed that almost all steaks are made out of beef, like sirloin?" and "have you read any novels? have you noticed that almost all of them follow the same sentence and paragraph structures?" I can go on. The fact is, most RPGs use mechanics that diversify themselves from other RPGs, just like good shooters and platformers use mechanics, like level layers and puzzle designs and weapons, to diversify themselves from others. Your argument is like calling Doom, Bioshock, and Call of Duty the same exact game.



-Jacquerel-	Dec 4 2011, 04:15 AM Post #20
Master Posts: 1,082 Group: Elite Member #89 Joined: October 2, 2010	If you are comparing the combat system of an RPG to the pieces of a board game I still don't see how you can be confused that they aren't making entirely new ones for their game. Your comparison doesn't say anything negatiove about my argument at all? My argument is not "calling doom and bioshock the same game", my argument is that you are criticising them for not inventing an entirely new genre. Context is important. Edited by Jacquerel, Dec 4 2011, 04:16 AM.



-The Raging Zephyr-	Dec 4 2011, 04:16 AM Post #21
The Winds of Change Posts: 1,254 Group: Elite Member #11 Joined: March 7, 2007	But I never said that. I said that they're basically copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new. You read my post, right?



-Jacquerel-	Dec 4 2011, 04:20 AM Post #22
Master Posts: 1,082 Group: Elite Member #89 Joined: October 2, 2010	I think you could do with rereading our whole series of posts to be honest. You say: They're basically copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new. I say: Copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new is what basically every RPG does. You say: Copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new is what basically every game does. I say: Yes, so why is is surprising that they're basically copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new? You fail to adequately answer this question or even address it in any way. Edited by Jacquerel, Dec 4 2011, 04:21 AM.



-The Raging Zephyr-	Dec 4 2011, 04:26 AM Post #23
The Winds of Change Posts: 1,254 Group: Elite Member #11 Joined: March 7, 2007	No, I said: They're basically copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new. You said: Copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new is what basically every RPG does. I said: No, that's not what every RPG does. If you were to go by the logic you brought up in that every RPG does nothing new, then pretty much anything and everything fails to do something new. You said: My argument is that you're criticizing them for not making a new genre. I said: That's not what I said, at all. How did you get anything else out of that? Final Fantasy 4 does not have the same mechanics as Final Fantasy 7, which does not have the same mechanics as Legaia, which does not have the same mechanics as Tales of Symphonia, which does not have the same mechanics of Romancing SAGA, which does not have the same mechanics as Pokemon, which does not have the same mechanics as Paper Mario. They have some things shared between them, just like an FPS shares a first person view and a variety of weapons and enemies. They do not, however, share the gameplay mechanics that set each of them apart from each other.



-Blacklightning-	Dec 4 2011, 04:29 AM Post #24
BL;DR Posts: 3,493 Group: Elite Member #80 Joined: September 7, 2010	Quote: You say: Copying and pasting mechanics from other games without bothering to actually do something new is what basically every game does. Umm. No he didn't. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact. Quote: The fact is, most RPGs use mechanics that diversify themselves from other RPGs, just like good shooters and platformers use mechanics, like level layers and puzzle designs and weapons, to diversify themselves from others. I know you like to be fucking pendantic about things like this MC, but this is ridiculous even for you. What exactly are you trying to prove here? Edited by Blacklightning, Dec 4 2011, 04:29 AM.



-Jacquerel-	Dec 4 2011, 04:43 AM Post #25
Master Posts: 1,082 Group: Elite Member #89 Joined: October 2, 2010	What about Final Fantasy's 1-4? What about 4-7? Hell the only significant change between 6 and 7 was the removal of turn order and its replacement with your little speed-based action bar which is certainly a change but barely a massive one. The point I was making is that RPGs pretty much follow a basic system in every game (the player selects an action from a list of options such as Fight, Magic, and Item. Battles are turn-based and continue until either side flees or is defeated. If the player's party wins, each character gains experience and gold; if it flees, it is returned to the map screen; and if every character in the party dies, the game is over) with only minor deviations such as how it is decided who goes first (it's chosen at the start or it's when a little bar fills), how much luck is involved and whether your interaction stops when you press the menu option or shortly after. I honestly wouldn't count changes in how skill damage is calculated such as in as changes to the combat system as they simply modify what maths the game has to do rather than what the player is doing. The only changes I personally would count as in any way significant are the last thing I mentioned, whether your interaction stops when you've chosen your attack or not or additions of mechanics such as position on the battle grid. I honestly can't see how Romancing Saga, the earlier Final Fantasy games and Pokemon really have different battle systems at all. They're all just nested lists of attacks that you pick off, then the opponent responds in kind. The only difference is that in one where you are standing is important and in another you only have four attacks. Pokemon does this, Final Fantasy does this (yes, all of them (except the spin-offs which aren't RPGs)), Mario and Luigi does this. Mario and Luigi (/paper mario because they are very similar) is one of the few things you can copy without just directly copying and pasting another game because in that game it is the execution of your skills that is important rather than where they are located in your attack menu, so there is far more room to diversify. Hell personally I wish everyone was copying Mario and Luigi as I can barely stand games where I just pick something from a list then have to sit back and watch while my character does it, but that's beside the point.



-The Raging Zephyr-	Dec 4 2011, 05:19 AM Post #26
The Winds of Change Posts: 1,254 Group: Elite Member #11 Joined: March 7, 2007	I'm feeling like I'm losing a couple brain cells here, but let me continue: Quote: What about Final Fantasy's 1-4? What about 4-7? 1: Job classes introduced that makes every character unique in their skill selections and bonuses to various stats, such as attack evasion and run percentages. Also introduces vehicles, which are a staple in most RPGs as a new way to get around. 2: Characters 'level' through accomplishing tasks in combat. Killing enemies boosts attack power, getting hurt boosts defenses, using spells increases spell power, etc. 3: Nothing new from the first title, aside from more defined mechanics, more character customization with the ability to change jobs on the fly and the introduction of specific class commands, as well as requiring specific status ailments in order to progress through certain areas of the game, i.e. Mini to get through small areas, Frog to get through waterlogged areas. 4: Sets classes for each character from the start, introduces what becomes the standard Row system (front row deals full damage, half row receives and deals half damage) 5: Further develops upon the class system from 3, now allowing you to mix and match class skills to have more control over your character and increase the usage of all classes. 6: Introduces Espers and Relics, which allow a player to effectively alter a character's stat progression and what spells they learn. Combined with Relics, the stat-boosting Espers allow a character to effectively switch out of their previous role and obtain a new one with the ability to equip various weapons and armor as granted by certain relics. Also introduces Desperation Attacks, allowing characters to use a special power at low health 7: Introduces Materia, which allows a player to mix and match spells and abilities on characters. Intelligent use of Materia can give your characters stat bonuses and weaknesses in certain areas, as well as allowing you to attack, defend, and cast spells more efficiently. Also develops Desperation Attacks into Limit Breaks, which are super powerful attacks that replace your normal attack command when you reach a certain damage threshold. Quote: I honestly can't see how Romancing Saga, the earlier Final Fantasy games and Pokemon really have different battle systems at all. Romancing Saga: Similar to Final Fantasy 2 in its stat progression. Characters learn spells and techniques by becoming proficient in earlier skills, allowing you to customize a character based on how you play them. Also has a non-linear plot in most cases, and lets you start the game from the beginning of a specific character's plotline. Also introduced combo mechanics in which a character can use specific techniques by combining others, as well as combining theirs with their ally's (a staple in Phantasy Star IV and Disgaea.) Pokemon: Forces you to fight one on one battles with enemies, but lets you find, raise, and train a party of up to six characters out of monsters you encounter in random battles. Pokemon also increase in strength the more they battle (similar to Final Fantasy 2 or SAGA, though traditional leveling is also included) and most fights are based around knowing how to use and abuse strengths and weaknesses in a complex elemental chart. So yeah, how are these mechanics all the same?



-Jacquerel-	Dec 4 2011, 05:21 AM Post #27
Master Posts: 1,082 Group: Elite Member #89 Joined: October 2, 2010	Because those aren't part of the battle system, they are the underlying mathematics How you chose your class before the battle has no impact on how you interact with the battle at all



-The Raging Zephyr-	Dec 4 2011, 05:36 AM Post #28
The Winds of Change Posts: 1,254 Group: Elite Member #11 Joined: March 7, 2007	Jacquerel Dec 4 2011, 05:21 AM Because those aren't part of the battle system, they are the underlying mathematics How you chose your class before the battle has no impact on how you interact with the battle at all So, because I select commands from menus and make my men attack the enemy in an RPG, all RPG games are the same. Because I click on guys and make them move places in an RTS, all RTS games are the same. Having variable amounts of resources, certain difficulties in harvesting said resources, managing those resources, the selection and abilities and balance of units with which to fight your opponent's units, amongst other logistic factors, means nothing. Because I point at a guy and press the fire button in an FPS, all FPS games are the same. How the enemy AI reacts, what weapons I have and what they do and how plentiful the ammunition for them is, how I can interact with the standing environment, and what extra boosting items I have means nothing. I didn't realize that concepts that allow you to have access to various skills and abilities were mathematics, I'm sorry. How you set up your people doesn't change how the battle works, of course not. Most RPGs are menu driven. I am not disputing this fact, and I don't understand why you think I am. Even Paper Mario uses a menu, with the only difference being that you press a button with proper timing, akin to playing DDR to deal damage. I'm curious as to what you're trying to prove.



-Jacquerel-	Dec 4 2011, 05:37 AM Post #29
Master Posts: 1,082 Group: Elite Member #89 Joined: October 2, 2010	You are conflating my point that "Most RPG combat systems are the same" with "All RPG Games are Identical" I would advise you not to do that My point, stated a couple of posts ago and here again repeated for you, is that I still don't understand how you could read "RPG" and then be confused when it had a combat system similar to another RPG Especially when you have just admitted that "Most RPG combat systems are the same" is something you are familiar with Edited by Jacquerel, Dec 4 2011, 05:38 AM.



-The Raging Zephyr-	Dec 4 2011, 05:51 AM Post #30
The Winds of Change Posts: 1,254 Group: Elite Member #11 Joined: March 7, 2007	Because it states that they're effectively tacking on mechanics from at least two other RPGs, in that there is "materia" that gives spells depending on what is equipped, as well as "push a button with proper timing" that Paper Mario includes. If that is all they're going with, then the game is effectively a Paper Mario ripoff with undertones of FF7. I can make a unique combat system really easily. Here's your character, Magician Red. All of Red's attacks are pulled from a menu of spells that is based on an elemental chart that just so happens to be shaped like a circle. By clicking one of the elements in this chart, you'll see the abilities he has at his disposal for that element. All abilities typically cost MP, but that's okay, because Red recovers 10% of his MP a turn, as do all characters. If he uses the "Defend" command, he'll gain extra defense and evasion as well as increasing his MP regeneration to 20% for the round. If he switches out of the party and Heirophant Green takes his place, then Red will recover 5% of his HP and 10% of his MP for each round he remains outside of the party. Now, the radial circle has four major elements: Fire, Water, Earth, and Air. Each starts with 1 point at level 1, and for every level you obtain you gain another 1 point that you can put into an element of your choice. By boosting one element, you become more resistant to attacks from it, but you also become weaker against attacks of the opposing element. As you balance them out, you'll gain no obvious benefits or detriments to the damage you take, i.e. Having Fire 10 and Water 1 may increase damage from Water by 45%, but having Fire 6 and Water 5 only increases the damage you take from water by 5%. The more points you put into an element, the better abilities from that element you'll have access to. As you dump points into an element, each of its intermediate elements gain half a point. For instance, a point in Fire or Water increases Chaos element by .5 points, a point in Fire or Earth increases Metal by .5, and a point in Fire or Air increases Electricity by .5 points. Therefore, you gain strengths and weaknesses depending on which major elements you choose to distribute your points in, and you also gain better spells and attacks from those elements; each major element corresponds thusly to three intermediate elements. See, that's a unique combat system. I didn't, as far as I know, pull directly from any other combat system. This is the point I'm trying to bring up: It's possible to create something entirely new as opposed to copy+paste mechanics that have been brought up for South Park RPG. I don't think I can get any more clearer than this aside from implanting your brain with my own thoughts.



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