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| Gamer Discussions; Discuss the industry and community. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2011, 02:20 AM (58,916 Views) | |
| Psycho Werekitsune | Sep 3 2011, 01:26 AM Post #181 |
Part man...part beast...full psycho!
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You're missing the point; Japanese developers are trying more and more to emulate the success of Western developers (they've gone on record to say this, it's pretty much what made Inafune a social pariah to the industry) so if anything, they'll eventually end up following suite. Plus Capcom's done more than just piss off fans and they are extorting them. A prime example of this is their release of MVC3; it's an unfinished and unpolished game rife with bugs and completely lacking in any content. Capcom claimed they'd be releasing more in the way of DLC, some of which would be free, including spectator mode (online matches are waited out in a lobby showing nothing more than lifebars, you can't even watch the match), yet they held out. Now they're coming out with a re-release that has 12 new characters, 3 new stages and spectator mode...at full retail price. They did not bother addressing a lot of the issues people had (like endings for one) and instead decided to just gyp the consumers because they could. This is extremely easy because, barring MML3's cancellation, the fans are totally okay with being constantly ripped off because "it's Capcom, we love them". They're totally cool with buying an inferior product, even an unfinished one and paying out of the ass for DLC (BEKUZ OF MIKE HAGGAR, AMIRITE?), whether it was redundant or something that should have been for free anyway (play SF4, unlock costumes, yet you can't use them until you BUY them with real money). Seriously, aren't you tired of hearing the "these guys suck, they can't make any good games, but I'm gonna buy this anyway" mentality? You know, like the douchebags who bitch about Sonic games and keep buying them everytime, only to perpetuate the cycle once more? Or, what's worse, those who've just given up and continue taking it up the ass because "there's nothing I can do"? Fact of the matter is, gamers stopped being gamers, they've just become company/console loyalists who will buy anything with a brand name on it, regardless of quality or content. This is nothing new, but it's pretty sad seeing people who actually prided themselves on being real gamers reduced to the same mentality as the jocktards who've oversaturated the market with their stupidity. The market's collapse isn't just on the companies' heads, it's also because of the gamers. Companies are only taking advantage of the gamers because they're letting them. |
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| -Blacklightning- | Sep 3 2011, 01:52 AM Post #182 |
BL;DR
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With the exception that Sonic came back with Colours and Generations, and a lot of people had good faith in him doing so. Sega isn't immune to reason, and they're well aware if there's something getting on the nerves of fanboys (even if it takes a while to rectify, but excuuuuuuuse them for taking 2-3 years to make each game). Now how much of that can you say about Capcom? I'm not sure where this comparison is supposed to draw merit from. I'd also like to point out that A: there is such thing as a collecter's mentality for videogames, and B: it kinda makes you look like a royal fucking retard if you try to proclaim games as shit that you haven't even played yet. This isn't as simple as "I'm buying games because I'm a complete fucking tool". I didn't plan on mentioning that before because I thought it was obvious, but yes, the consumer does need to learn they're ultimately the ones who control a company's purse strings, but they aren't always willing to follow through with it for fear of killing franchises they're loyal to. Again, this can be both good and bad depending on the context - good if the company isn't a complete scumbag and can actually un-fuck things given the resources, and bad that it justifies continous bad games for companies that are. I'd just like you to realize that this logic isn't all-ecompassing. There's times for giving devs what they need to get their shit fixed, and times for starving them of it so they realize what they're doing isn't right. Also, as long as we're still talking about market crashes, I'd like to casually point out that it won't fix anything. Quick reminder - Activion is still going today because they SURVIVED the last gaming crash, and they were arguably even worse back then than they are right now. Edited by Blacklightning, Sep 3 2011, 01:53 AM.
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| Psycho Werekitsune | Sep 3 2011, 07:18 PM Post #183 |
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Part man...part beast...full psycho!
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Oh I agree fully man, I'm saying that it's gotten so bad that the consumers really don't know when it's time for them to close up their wallets to a company that has screwed them over numerous times, at least, not until something VERY radical happens. On the issue of Activision surviving a crash, the issue is not whether they survive or not (if they did, they'd be demonised to bankruptcy, considering the media is way more mainstream now), it's whether gamers can survive it. Too much dependancy on companies will leave people dead in the water if a crash happens because no one is playing it smart and buying games that last due to completeness and extensive content. |
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| -Arem- | Sep 3 2011, 09:32 PM Post #184 |
Fabulous Homosexual
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What GameStop execs did was horrible, but I found that many GameStop store managers have silently disobeyed the order. Needless to say, I won't mention names. And I'm extremely choosy on the games I play, so in a sense, the "evil" corporations don't get much if anything from me. The EA labels I get are typically ones made by BioWare. Activision games? I buy used from GameStop, but the jury is out to see what Bungie has in mind since in their contracts, any game they make is Bungie property, not Activision. Capcom? Hell, I haven't bought one since Devil May Cry 4, but that game wasn't the reason I haven't. Edited by Arem, Sep 3 2011, 09:33 PM.
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| -Blacklightning- | Sep 6 2011, 11:59 AM Post #185 |
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BL;DR
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So this guy is selling Platnium trophies for PSN. You know, I can't even remember the last time anyone looked at achievements and trophies in a way that represents actual accomplishments in skill - people spend more time farming for them or doing their damn best to cheat them in the easiest form possible rather than playing games for the challege or even the enjoyment, and it's gotten to the stage that it's turning people into quite possibly the closest thing you can get to a mindless gaming zombie. That people let a meaningless numerical increment tell them what to do and what to play is pretty sad in of itself, but hacking the achievements in or letting someone get them for you is brainless and dishonourable even by those standards. I'll be perfectly honest, I think achievements are one of the worst things that has ever happened to this industry. It's causing people to buy crappy games that they are in no way enjoying for the sake of an integer that is in no way reflective of the whole point it was put there in the first place, and the fact that people would legitimately give away their account details to some complete stranger just for some fake e-peen boost just makes me hate the system even more. |
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| Psycho Werekitsune | Sep 6 2011, 12:14 PM Post #186 |
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Part man...part beast...full psycho!
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How dare he soil the purity that is Clannad by associating his name with it? D:< I'm pretty much of the same mindset, which is why I'm very anti-Nintendo Achievements because I'd rather be devoid of the plague that is this system of gamer abuse. It's worse for me because I'm OCD about these things; I don't beat games, I conquer them. So when they throw in some kind of subconcious "collectible" system into every single game that is tied directly to stupid actions you need to accomplish through gameplay, then it just gives me a headache. The worst part is that there is absolutely no reward for doing them in most of these games, aside from Halo, which gave you armour upgrades and tied into the Waypoint system for more rewards I guess. Proof of how pointless they are is when they reward you for watching the intro movie, or creative ways to fucking KILL YOURSELF. The other issue is that the dependancy on the online component of a game (which in the case of most modern FPSes, which in turn comprises the majority of the 360's lineup) is ridiculous because, at some point in time, those servers are going down and those achievements are LOST FOREVER. I actually originally thought the concept of the achievement system was used to reward players with points they could use to download XBLA/PSN titles and DLC. I thought that Gamerscore was actually the same thing as Live/PSN points, so that it encourages the player to truly master a game and, as a reward, they get to buy shit using the rewarded points. This meant they'd have to make achievements more CHALLENGING as opposed to ridiculous and that meant not just farming crap from kiddie games to get a higher score. Unfortunately, this was not the case and that in the end, the system served to do nothing more than agitate people for so many reasons. It really bothers me to see how this could have been done in a way that made gaming a more rewarding experience, as opposed to a more arduous one. But since we're talking about failboats related to gaming: http://www.destructoid.com/fans-upset-over-anime-ized-statue-of-mass-effect-s-liara-210590.phtml megaStryke wrote this article outlining fans' outcry over a statue of Liara from Mass Effect, in bishoujo style as part of a famous line of figures that take Western icons and reinterprets them in said style. The fans, seemingly taking a very "West vs East" mentality, demanded a blood sacrifice in response for their disdain with this. I'm just going to copy/paste my comment to Tony about my opinion on the matter:
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Sep 15 2011, 06:36 AM Post #187 |
Master
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YES. THIS. This, even though a delayed game... looks like a terrible idea. |
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| -Jacquerel- | Sep 15 2011, 11:59 AM Post #188 |
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I honestly can't see how anyone could have a problem with achievements They're sub goals that people who care can do and that people who aren't bothered about playing a game after they've finished it can just safely ignore |
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| Psycho Werekitsune | Sep 15 2011, 03:39 PM Post #189 |
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Part man...part beast...full psycho!
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Video's been taken down. |
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| -Luffy Foxtrot- | Sep 15 2011, 05:47 PM Post #190 |
Raining on your parade with a truckload of awkward awesomeness.
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It's not achievements as a whole that's a problem, though. It's more the issues that for most games, you can get achievements for so much as pressing the fucking start button. It doesn't do much good other than make the developers look lazy enough that they couldn't come up with decent achievements that would actually challenge a player, like "take down said enemy without countering or taking damage", rather opting for achievements like "ride 300 miles on the hoverboard" or some other useless thing like that. I think that if the achievements placed an extra challenge on those who cared to actually try and do something like that on their own, they'd feel a sense of accomplishment to be rewarded for that. Even more so if the points and such could enable someone to get free stuff, which is kinda what the Avatar Awards on Xbox 360 are all about nowadays, anyhow, but it's still not as great as it potentially could be. |
 
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| -Jacquerel- | Sep 15 2011, 06:30 PM Post #191 |
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Master
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But those just sound like reasons as for how it could be improved (and what can't be improved?) rather than for removing them or erasing them from time somehow. |
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| -Arem- | Sep 15 2011, 08:32 PM Post #192 |
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Fabulous Homosexual
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I've always stated that Mass Effect has had the best uses for Achievements in any game, as they actually permanently change the game afterwards. Hell, even if you deleted your save data from your 360, and then played it again, the changes are still there because you can't delete your Achievements. There's no going back. While in a lesser degree they do in Mass Effect 2, they still affect the game. I've always preferred Achievements if they "suggest" to try a different way or method to play a game. For instance, in Mass Effect 2, there's an Achievement called "Tactician" which asks you to kill 20 enemies using combined effects from multiple biotic powers from your squad. If you do this, the results from just watching it happen can be pretty glamorous. Possibly the weakest Achievements are the story-progression based ones, since you'll just get them anyway without skill. Now those don't annoy me, but the ones that do are the ones that require luck, which is more often the case in Halo games. So yeah, if Achievements were more rewarding that they affect the game itself, or they suggest trying new methodology to play, I'm cool with them. I don't like the ones purely luck based. I'm looking at you, "Totally Worth It!" ("Totally Worth It" is a Halo: Reach Achievement that asks you to get a Double Kill from the Grave in competitive multiplayer matchmaking.) Now, with the avatars in the 360, I wouldn't mind the more worthless Achievements if they weren't made Achievements, but instead made Avatar Rewards. Like in Sonic Adventure, playing for 5 and 10 hours unlocks special avatar stuff, like a Sonic shirt and shoes. :D Edited by Arem, Sep 15 2011, 08:34 PM.
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| -Blacklightning- | Sep 16 2011, 04:40 AM Post #193 |
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BL;DR
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Nobody is suggesting we do that. I'm not even sure where you got that implication from. The problem with achievements is the execution, not the concept, and by and large almost nobody knows what the fuck they're supposed to be doing with them. As long as we're talking about games with Achievements that don't suck, well, I'd have to point to the Left 4 Dead series. A big problem with most achievements is that they have a tendency to reward completely arbitary tasks that have next to no relevance to the actual game at hand, or are just plain boring and reward you only for completing everything that was already mandatory for a single full-game playthrough anyway (eg: stage progression achievments). Not only does L4D only mildly step into the obligatory part of the latter (which count towards entire campaigns rather than individual stage completion), it actually does what achievements should be doing in the first place - to encourage and reward natural skill progression. You'd be really amazed how many people didn't actually realize it was far more efficient to simply shove Hunters and Smokers off their victims rather than just plain shooting them off, until they realized there was an achievement for it, and I know not a single person would have suspected that the best way to take down a hulking mass of muscle would be simply to throw a molotov at it first. Then of course you've got the ridiculously hard stuff like getting through an entire campaign without recieving a single point of damage from a special infected, but hell, as long as achievements are supposed to be guages of skill I see nothing wrong with taking it to extremes. I'd just rather that achievements were handled in a way that actually compliments your playstyle in some way. What's the wrong way to do it? Well, there's a few examples I can think of. There's one in Borderlands for killing an enemy by jumping on its head. Successfully landing on top of someone deals 1 point of damage, regardless of your level. The actual HP of enemies can reach anywhere from the hundreds to even the thousands, so suffice to say, it's such a stupidly impractical and un-fun way to kill someone (even if you weaken them with guns first!) that you'll never be tempted to try again once you get the achievement for it. There's one in Naughty Bear for finishing a timed mission with exactly one second left. Is it even possible to do that unintentionally, without waiting by the exit for the good 60 seconds or so you're bound to have left? Why would you even want to do that? Oh yeah, and of course the absurdly obligatory stuff like accessing the opening menu for the first time, which was really only funny when the Simpsons did it. And that's before you get into games that sell based on easy achievments alone, and the complete and utter walking wallets that keep justifying devs making shitty games on the condition that you can get 1000G in under an hour or so. But that's a subject so depressing that even I don't really want to get into it. Edited by Blacklightning, Sep 16 2011, 04:41 AM.
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Sep 16 2011, 05:02 AM Post #194 |
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Master
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I remember the days when an achievement meant you got something for your hard work... like playing as Super Sonic. |
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| -Jacquerel- | Sep 16 2011, 05:48 AM Post #195 |
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Master
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How else am I meant to interpret this instead of as "I wish this had never happened"? That is what confused me. Edited by Jacquerel, Sep 16 2011, 05:49 AM.
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