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| Sonic the Hedgehog; All things Sonic go here. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 4 2010, 07:44 AM (41,933 Views) | |
| -Arem- | Oct 8 2011, 10:10 PM Post #436 |
Fabulous Homosexual
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Dude, that's why I'm waiting for an SA2:B port to the 360/PS3. I want my Chao Garden back, even though the GBA attachment wouldn't work! :D By the by, you really should give Colors Wii a spin. It's really nice. Only complaint I had was the restrictions to do some of Sonic's signature moves like the side-step. |
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| -Blacklightning- | Oct 8 2011, 11:54 PM Post #437 |
BL;DR
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I really don't understand why people insist on duct-taping a Chao Garden to an existing game in the first place, especially in such a manner that requires you to grind levels over and over again to make any use of it. To be honest I think they should just make it a seperate XBLA title or something, so at the very least the gameplay's consistent, and on the offchance they do connect it to other titles at least they won't constantly have to make new gardens every single time. Making the minigames in some way playable would definently help too. I mean for fuck's sake, do people actually enjoy watching Chao do races and fights that by all right you should be in full control of anyway? |
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| Psycho Werekitsune | Oct 9 2011, 12:17 AM Post #438 |
Part man...part beast...full psycho!
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While the Chao Garden seemed like an interesting thing overall, I just felt like it was too much a chore for me. I felt like I was forced into grinding through the game to create a Chao competent enough to beat everything and earn me whatever unlockables that came with them. Yes, I got all the secret wallpapers (aside from the one that needs a GBA game connection, seeing as I lack any of the Advances/Battle/Pinball Party), all the little nicknacks in the garden, plus the emblems. Once I was done, I was done; I've never been back to the garden since, not unless I accidentally grabbed the key during a level while I was playing for nostalgia's sake. |
 EMBRACE THE NAKED!
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Oct 9 2011, 12:26 AM Post #439 |
Master
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t adds some decent replayability though. |
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| -Blacklightning- | Oct 9 2011, 12:38 AM Post #440 |
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BL;DR
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What, having to play the same level over and over? Oh please. |
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| Psycho Werekitsune | Oct 9 2011, 01:04 AM Post #441 |
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Part man...part beast...full psycho!
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I wouldn't call it replayability so much as longevity in the form of a side objective. It's the kind of thing only completists or people who'd be into a pet sim would go for anyway. |
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EMBRACE THE NAKED!
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| -Arem- | Oct 9 2011, 06:22 AM Post #442 |
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Fabulous Homosexual
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Why? Because the chao were CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTE!! |
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| -Phantom Hammertoes- | Oct 9 2011, 07:33 AM Post #443 |
Master
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Wait, there's still no SA2:B port? >>. Not that I would bother anyway. I just dig out the original from time to time. I'm still attached to my 7 I never said I wanted it duct-taped to a game. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a garden. Like most games before it, I want something different and preferably more complex. If not, at least something that hides the simplicity a little better. I never bothered with the shitty mini-games anyway. It's more the personalization that I was addicted to. What made it so great is that it was a side-objective that went as "deep" as you wanted it to be. (Even though it became more shallow the deeper you got.) I've thought of the downloadable title idea before but we haven't heard heads or Miles of it since and we're about to get Generations. So chances are if it's not present there, it isn't happening. Which is fine. As long as the Chaos themselves are present, I'm satisfied. But come on. You can't honestly say a Chao Garden reboot couldn't be fantastic, done correctly.
...We're still talking about Sonic games, right? Or are you being sarcastic? It can be hard to tell with you :P |
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| -Arem- | Oct 9 2011, 08:19 AM Post #444 |
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Fabulous Homosexual
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Not yet, although it's greatly desired by the Sonic community. And since it has multiplayer, might be cool to add that functionality to Xbox Live to play with a friend. |
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| -Blacklightning- | Oct 9 2011, 09:41 AM Post #445 |
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BL;DR
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Sigh. Let me put it this way. The only way to raise Chao is to collect Chaos Drives. The only way to collect Chaos Drives is to smash enemies. The presented argument was that because of this link between main game and side game, replay value is boosted. NO. BULL FUCKING SHIT. That's not adding replay value - that's literally the textbook definition of a grinding mechanic. Even if you discount the fact that the task in of itself is extremely repetitive, what exactly does this add to the main game? None of them are especially out of the way, in fact they're always on the main path anyway, so we know it doesn't encourage exploration. It costs time to have to collect every drive you need, so we know it doesn't encourage speedrunning. It consists of doing the same thing over and over and over again, so we know it can't possibly be particularly entertaining. You could say it convinces you to play levels again, but only the ones with optimal Chaos Drive ratios, and even then you couldn't possibly look me in the eye and tell me in complete honesty that you weren't planning on doing so regardless of whether you had to do it to fuel a genre roulette within a genre roulette. Before anyone gets on my case about it, let me get one thing straight: I do happen to like Chao. As a concept. It just so happens to be implemented in the most asinine form possible, and the fact that it's leeching off the popularity of one of the most popular games ever gives it a free pass for it all - if not because of blind rose-tinted-glasses nostaliga, because Sega probably would not have been able to sell this at all if not for the licensing attachement. It just gets on my nerves that people can actually find it in them to defend crap like this, not because they want it done better and certaintly not because it actively clashes with the rest of the game style. If Sonic Team makes up some random virtual pet game and duct-tapes it onto a completely unrelated game for no real reason at all, by fuck they better at least make sure that it plays in some way like a platformer, let alone a Sonic game. To do otherwise is basically telling their own target audience to go fuck themselves. Also
 The plural of Chao is Chao. There is no S. It is its own plural. "Chaos" is a completely different word. Goddamnit. Edited by Blacklightning, Oct 9 2011, 09:43 AM.
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| -Arem- | Oct 9 2011, 09:44 AM Post #446 |
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Fabulous Homosexual
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Being someone who grinds constantly when I play RPGs for the fun of it, the Chao Garden concept was nothing alien to me, nor resentful. Now the Modern trailer. Not sure I care for the Crisis City mix, but maybe because it's so drastically different from the original. Love how the level looks though, however brief glimpses I got. Also, lol Wisp powers are back. Edited by Arem, Oct 9 2011, 09:49 AM.
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| -Blacklightning- | Oct 9 2011, 09:51 AM Post #447 |
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BL;DR
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Good for you. The point is, it should be something built in mind for the target audience the main game is aimed at, because a grind mechanic isn't going to be particularly appealing for most people buying a game expecting it to be 100% platformer. If people took issue with being thrown into slow, clunky mechs or having to search for randomized treasure, you can only imagine how apathetic those same people must've been towards a side game that they ultimately barely even have any participation in. lol your edit caught me while I was still typing Edited by Blacklightning, Oct 9 2011, 09:52 AM.
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| -Arem- | Oct 9 2011, 10:02 AM Post #448 |
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Fabulous Homosexual
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Hey, don't worry about the edit. The trailer caught me by surprise as well. |
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| -Phantom Hammertoes- | Oct 9 2011, 11:09 AM Post #449 |
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Master
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...Okay. I have no idea how trying to mix up gameplay a little, even with something left-of-field and not very well implemented (but out of the way), is telling the target audience to go fuck themselves. AND FUCK TARGET AUDIENCES ANYWAY. Hey, here's the fucking target audience: Gamers. Except, no because fucking everything has to be formulated and planned so that "the target audience" has less and less inclination to put the fucking game down (until it's finished. Then they have to go buy a new one, that's probably ten times worse but ten times more expensive than, say, Braid.) Nevermind creativity and individuality anyway. As long as it's good for the economy, right? I appreciate it because it shows a time when games were allowed to be a little more fucked up, engine and even graphics wise, if only for the sake of experimentation. Oh wait, we still have those games. Except there's a fucking marketing term for it now. I think they call it "Indie". Pfft. But I never had trouble collecting Drives and Animals even whilst doing speed runs, which is usually what I do when I'm running through the 4 good levels in SA2:B. The whole "grinding" thing has never been an issue. I just rack 'em up whilst I have some fun. I'm worried if you actually had that much trouble getting the Chaos Drives you needed that you had to actually focus on getting them. And you did actually have to explore to get some of the better animals in the game but I haven't needed any of those in a long time. Think what you will (he says to BL) but I certainly found it entertaining. Ultimately, like with anything, it would be nice to see something like the Garden done correctly. Chances are that would have only happened had they retained and tried to re-tool it, after learning from their mistakes. It's long lost now. Again, I don't really care. I never found it as big of a fuss as everyone else, I was merely reminded of it recently I guess. And I heavily connect with anything I get nostalgic with because it's during a time when I didn't realise how fucked up the entire EVERYTHING is. Not that I have a fucking clue now but it's hard going 18 years as a simple minded, innocent fool only to... Oh, hey, am I still talking? :) P.S - Chao. I knew that. No, really. Hell, I think you have corrected me before, way back when :P. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go check on my Pokemons. |
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| -Blacklightning- | Oct 9 2011, 11:54 AM Post #450 |
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BL;DR
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The target audience is the platforming crowd. Chao is a pet sim. The latter, despite being "left-of-field", is still mandatory for 100% completion. It's not terribly difficult to see where this is going. There's a very big difference between "giving less inclination to put the game down" and "artificially prolonging the game's longetivity by forcing the player to jump through hoops. Repeatedly". If prolonging the game without maintaining any sense of consistency wasn't any kind of problem, the medals and Werehog in Unleashed HD never would have garnered so much hatred, nor the morality missions in ShTH or hell, while we're at it, the majority of Sonic and the Secret Rings in general. You know what I would have done if I wanted the game to be longer? Add more fucking levels. Add more ways to play the existing ones. Add bots to the multiplayer. I mean christ, even if I had to stoop into minigame territory I'd at least ensure it still appeals to the same people the game's fucking marketed at. The fact that Sonic Team insisted on putting so many unrelated playing styles into every game they made is the entire reason the fanbase has so many divisions in the first place, and the last thing ST should be doing is justifying these divisions further. Revise Chao so that it actually belongs in the game if you want, hell, I'd actually like that, but even you have to admit that the innovation is kinda pointless if the main crowd of the game isn't going to find it fun. If you want my advice, I'd just say stop fucking appealing to two completely different and contrasting audiences - he who chases two rabbits catches neither. I've yet to see a decent Indie game that blatantly advertises itself to one audience, then goes into features not even built in mind for them. Not even talking explicitly about Chao Gardens either, by the way - as I've mentioned earlier, the clumsy shooting sections and hot-cold treasure hunting is equally guilty of this. Trouble? There's no difficulty at all. If anything, that's part of the problem. There's no variation either, for that matter. But those are points I believe I've already covered earlier. But it should go without saying that replaying these levels is bound to be more fun anyway if I'm doing so of my own whim, and not just because I have to collect more generic mcguffins so to make an unrelated-but-still-necessary-for-completionism minigame fest playable at all. They weren't even needed in the first place, considering they're largely cosmetic (and more often than not horrifically mutilate your Chao anyway), and the stat bonuses you get from them are still outweighed by the effort it takes to get them in comparison to grabbing a bunch of drives instead. Suffice to say, if even you aren't doing this regularly then it's kind of hard to consider it a point in your favour as far as exploration is concerned. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be so sure. The thing is, we won't know if Sega stoops to fan demand because frankly, it still takes a good year or two to make anything out of it. By the time they've shown anything of it, most people will have forgotten about it, or the viewpoint becomes a little less widespread and persistent, or stuff like that, you get the idea. You could think of it as Sega being a bit "late to the party", if that's easier to understand. Just for comparison, there was a pretty big period prior to S4 and Generations where most of us had forgotten about Classic Sonic entirely and were moreso looking forward to fixing shit that was wrong with Unleashed and Colours, but as you can probably expect, people used to go completely fucking nuts about it around the time Sega probably started conceptualizing about it. Sonic Team is also, for better or worse, extremely unpredictable anyway. It's kinda hard to tell whether they'll bring Chao back or give Shadow a wiimote-enabled sequel, so as far as I'm concerned, just about anything is on the cards. Who knows, in a year or two we'll probably start seeing playable Tails again. Oh my god. I think I'm contagious. 
Edited by Blacklightning, Oct 9 2011, 11:55 AM.
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