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| Sonic the Hedgehog; All things Sonic go here. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 4 2010, 07:44 AM (41,842 Views) | |
| -Arem- | Feb 2 2014, 11:55 PM Post #1801 |
Fabulous Homosexual
  ![]](http://z2.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)
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MLP didn't at the beginning. It was intended to be something moms and daughters could watch together. It expanded when they learned men were watching it too. |
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Feb 3 2014, 12:23 AM Post #1802 |
Master
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Expanded into what? It's not a terrible show, but it's still seems like the same demographic. Anyway if that was the case, it's exactly why they should expand Sonic's appeal. Edited by Havoc the Tenrec, Feb 3 2014, 01:30 AM.
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| -Ruris- | Feb 3 2014, 12:38 AM Post #1803 |
Master
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People still want a "mature" Sonic? After the travesty that was Shadow the Hedgehog? |
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Feb 3 2014, 01:29 AM Post #1804 |
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Master
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The only travesty was the gameplay mechanics and length of the levels and their design. The story was pretty decent for a Sonic game. |
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| -Blacklightning- | Feb 3 2014, 03:50 AM Post #1805 |
BL;DR
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So a kid's movie in which people get punched. This isn't really a sign of maturity, this is literally the exact same fallacy people use to justify CoD as anything other than a kids game. Believe it or not the ESRB rating does not actually coincide with their target market all the time. Again you're assuming the vocal audience on the internet actually makes up "a lot" in the grand scheme of things. You don't have any idea how many people don't make their presence known on the net, if they even use it at all, do you? Tally up the entirety of the fandom as recorded on the internet as compared to everyone else and we'd make up like twenty percent of it, tops. And that's before you consider the divides that have formed therein. There is literally no way you can say this with a straight face. "I'm the ultimate lifeform that happens to resemble a hedgehog and I've forgotten how that happened. No wait, now I'm a robot! And now I've forgotten everything again! No wait, now I'm the descendant of an alien! And now I've forgotten everything again! Now I'm going to beat Sonic up and kill Eggman! No whoops, that never happened! In fact I just went on ten different playthroughs and literally none of them counted for anything! Now I'm going to turn Super and have a fight set to the title theme! Because it's not like anyone'll see that coming right? And best of all, this whole thing was made for the purposes of tying up plotholes only to make more of them, and the only thing that could've wrapped anything up was left in a single line of dialogue over 10 minutes into the final boss fight, where almost nobody will even hear it! LOGIC!" Don't even get me started on this shit. |
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Feb 3 2014, 05:20 AM Post #1806 |
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Master
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http://www.kids-in-mind.com/t/transformers.htm
The fact that was older than 11 when watching it, and the fact that I still like it... I can also say that with a smile. I have cousins that liked it at an older age too. It had a lot going for it.
More often than I care to admit.
When it comes to people who grew up with Sonic? There are moments when I feel like I've never seen a fanbase so huge on the internet, besides the ones that are obviously bigger. Either way people on the internet wont be able to prevent anything, not until they start reviewing it and ruin its reputation from the inside out, 20% or not. Which might just lessen the chance of a second season or sequel of a movie. That is, of course, unless the autistic new generation has a louder voice.
I think I already did. I was referring to the majority of Sonic game stories, and honestly I kind of forgot a lot about it, probably not as good as I think I remember it. Some of that stuff at the end was obviously to be expected, that's just the formula they always use. Edited by Havoc the Tenrec, Feb 3 2014, 05:25 AM.
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| -Ruris- | Feb 3 2014, 05:48 AM Post #1807 |
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Master
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And it's not like Black Doom or the aliens ever showed up ever again. Nor was the event ever mentioned again. But it's not like it really matters since the only game since where you can play as Shadow similarly wrote itself out of existence. Sonic games (or anything, really) are not known for their engaging stories. Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by Ruris, Feb 3 2014, 05:49 AM.
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Feb 3 2014, 06:00 AM Post #1808 |
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Master
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If they had a different writer, it could have been much better. If Sega ever wants to do anything like that again, they definitely need a new staff. |
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| -Arem- | Feb 3 2014, 06:22 AM Post #1809 |
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Fabulous Homosexual
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Give it up, Havoc. Sonic games aren't going to change unless it changes hands COMPLETELY. When's that going to happen? Never. Sonic will sink with SEGA before that will ever happen.
Edited by Arem, Feb 3 2014, 06:22 AM.
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| -Blacklightning- | Feb 3 2014, 06:57 AM Post #1810 |
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BL;DR
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And a big thank you for completely missing the point. Good for you. That doesn't at all mean that any of you were the target demograph, though. It also doesn't exactly act as a sample size indicitive of the community at large. Ironically, if anything, Sonic's reputation was ruined specifically because the internet had their way. Do you think it was Sega's own idea to make a game based purely around Shadow? Kiiiiiiiind of a big indication that you should be taking cues from people that actually know how to make a game. The point is that the precedent for whatever Sonic's doing now has always existed to some degree throughout the whole franchise, and it just so happens that people can grow out of that precedent. Which is understandable when someone gets bitter about it, but fucking stupid and selfish when people expect the franchise to change with them. And just outright laughable when people construe the idea of a mature game as one that is seemingly inherently grimdark and full of themes that are literally only shoehorned into there to bump the age rating up. >claims certain game has a good story >doesn't even remember what happened in it 
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Feb 3 2014, 10:39 AM Post #1811 |
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Master
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I was referencing to other things that happened... besides mere "punches".
I don't recall ever saying our age group was. What I'm saying is that it's done other franchises some good when they expand the age range a little. ie: Transformers, ect.
The internet didn't completely have their way, maybe in a few aspects in terms of game play. We have games mostly just Sonic playing without friends now. Personally I wasn't really for all that, it takes away replay value and lessens the time to complete. Although, if it wasn't for the internet we probably wouldn't have Sonic Generations with a trip back to genesis gameplay and levels, for the demographic of the older fans. And that was probably the best sonic game in the last decade.
....IIII'mm pretty sure it was theirs. Yes he was too popular to leave killed off after SA2, but that didn't mean fans asked for his own game and for it to be rated T: for Damn, and for all the gameplay mechanics.
I don't think anyone expects them to bump the age rating up.... ever .... again. It wouldn't make sense for them to. I'm pretty sure Satam wasn't as grimdark as it seemed, and as much as I wish they would do something with it, it'll never happen. But it's just fun to hope for things that'll probably never happen. If you're going to get all up in arms over people who like to simply imagine what it would be like, then I don't know what to tell you.
"The story was pretty decent for a Sonic game." I'm not sure if you forgot, but that's not saying much. I probably didn't try to over-analyze the story for plot holes when I played it like you may have. Anyway, from what I've been reading lately, those supposed plot holes actually have explanations now, confirmed during Sonic Boom 2013 by Ilzuka Takashi. What I mostly remember were the parts involving Maria getting shot, the white house getting its own little Independence Day, a giant meteor heading to Earth, Shadow with guns, aliens trying to deceive him, seeing multiple clones or robots of himself, being able to choose a sides, going one on one with the rest of the cast, the computer room, multiple endings, massive amount of levels, closure on what the hell he is, ect. I may not be able to recite the story as well you can in detail maybe, but I do remember it. I just don't want to say that I remember it well because it's been a long time. It's fun to make fun of, but it did actually offer more than a standard Sonic game if you think about it. Edited by Havoc the Tenrec, Feb 3 2014, 10:43 AM.
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| -Blacklightning- | Feb 3 2014, 03:19 PM Post #1812 |
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BL;DR
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Bayformers was probably a pretty bad example then, because that's the most loathed Transformers has ever been in recent memory. More to the point, being aimed at kids doesn't necessarily mean others can't get any enjoyment out of it whatsoever, and we all as Sonic fans are a testament to that. For all we know it could just be more Generations level dialogue again. I think you're taking the age target a little too seriously. It was enough to completely ruin the game - I'm not sure it matters beyond that. They wanted guns, they wanted swearing, they wanted RAWRRR GRIMDARK, they wanted it more like Halo, and even in a best case scenario there's no way you can do any of these without defying convention and - as much as I hate to resort to a No True Scotsman - making a game that carries nothing of what a sane Sonic fan expects or enjoys one for. And while it's true this can work both ways, it's worth noting again that not only do very few of these people have any concept of how an idea becomes a videogame, most of them have their own agenda and seek only to twist the franchise into their own image, which is not only insanely vain and petty, it circles right back around to precedent and why one should be careful not to break it without a really fucking good reason. Sega actually held a poll over it. Shadow won by a landslide. What, do you think I'm joking? As far as other influences go, well...  Need I say more? If even you think that's not saying much then why bother paying it the compliment?
Goddamnit, you made me do this. Going through one at a time: >Maria died of a disease in SA2. ShTH retconned it to a gunshot for literally no reason, and then completely forgot there should've actually been someone in the room to fire it when it actually happened ingame. >The president was still in the White House when it was destroyed. Somehow he survives despite complete obliteration of the building, and not a single mention is made as to how. >Last Story happens on the Black Comet, which makes most if not all of the standard endings impossible. Even the arcs that do end there make no sense - one results in Shadow killing Eggman, one involves Shadow being pure good and turning on Sonic for literally no reason other than the sudden urge to prove he's better than him (oh yeah and the GUN Commander is suddenly there for some reason), but I digress. >Why the fuck does Shadow need guns when he has Chaos Powers? In the scheme of his own moveset, considering he already has ranged attacks like Chaos Spear, it makes no realy sense that he'd have to lower himself to using mundane tools, and the fact that enemies were given ridiculous HP to necessitate it while standard attacks were powered down seems almost insulting. This isn't a case of being physically weak either, in the case of punches and homing attacks - he can flip a fucking bus with one arm. >The fact that Black Doom even felt a need to coerce Shadow shows a maddening lack of foresight on his part - considering he's directly responsible for Shadow's creation to begin with, I just can't comprehend why he'd even give free will to the only person capable of destroying his empire singlehandedly. Hell, Black Doom in general is pretty symptomatic of pointless complexity addiction, even if nowhere near as bad as say, Mephiles in 06. But that's a different topic. >Did they honestly expect any suspense at all over whether Shadow is an android or not? Anyone with half a brain will come to the proper conclusion when the realise the player character is the only one that doesn't throw missiles. Even discounting this, the absolute closure on it is hidden away 10 minutes into the final boss fight, which is practically impossible to do unless you deliberately refuse to damage it. They hyped the shit out of that one conclusion prior to release, and then they had the nerve to hide it? What the fuck were they smoking? >A moral system is bad enough when it's literally binary. It's worse when your allies still shoot you even when you're on their side. Worse still when you're expected to stop and kill every single enemy in the level for it in a series that is supposed to be about speed and flow. And this is before you get to the fact that almost none of these arcs are even connected to each other in any meaningful way beyond the vaugely defined moral compass, and sometimes the game will throw even that out of the window by throwing partners into the level that honestly expect you to help them even when you're blatantly on the opposite alignment to them. >By "one on one", you mean Sonic only? Who is reduced to nothing more than a harmless stepping stone for the GUN Commander's mech? >Only other thing worth mentioning is the multiple endings - which as mentioned earlier, are completely retconned by the Last Story, making the events of the entire game incredibly dubious. So all in all nobody even knows what actually happened canonically, besides the entire Black Arms being genocided by ARK Colony laser at the end. It's pretty much what would happen if Sonic '06 played along at normal with the exception of not retconning itself within the same game. |
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| -Aroxys- | Feb 3 2014, 03:33 PM Post #1813 |
GALACTUS
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Well, ShtH's story as a concept isn't bad, the problem is that they're screwing with canonical characters to make it work. If this were an original story about a superhuman or something having to choose between the alien invaders s/he has a kinship with and the humans s/he has lived with most of her life, that would be a decent concept. Like BL said, the problem comes from the fact that Shadow already has established canon backstory and Sega took a Boston Basher to its rear to make it work in this setting. In fact, it also takes away from Gerald Robotnik as well, because originally he created Shadow with no outside help. Think what you will about that man, but it's clear that in his prime he was on-par with Eggman or perhaps even greater. As it stands though, I'm kinda eh on even acknowledging ShtH as a legit Sonic game for every reason BL stated, and the fact that they used a beautiful pre-rendered opening that made its sup-par graphics really stand out, the mission design was annoying at times (god help you if you need to do a Dark mission where you can only earn Hero points, or that crappy level where you could only prime or disarm bombs in a city with no option to tell them both to fuck off), the music was hit and miss, the level designs were awful at points, and to make matters worse that whole 'mature Sanic game' aspect manifested in gunplay and profanity. You want mature themes in a Sonic game? Look at Lost World. Ah, right. Plus the game took away from the skill and strength of pretty much everyone who wasn't Shadow and didn't use a gun. Hero mission partners were good as distractions, and f***ing Sonic was a footnote in the Diablon boss battle! |
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| -Havoc the Tenrec- | Feb 4 2014, 02:56 AM Post #1814 |
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Master
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I like to play devil’s advocate. I don’t look at things in black and white.... bad game or good game, it's not healthy to hate something without saying at least something good about it, I do the same for Sonic 06 at times too. Like Aroxys said, the concept and presentation was appealing, but the execution was not so much.
...I don't take any of this seriously. I'm not the one writing long winded essays. I just like stating my opinion that I personally feel they'd be more successful if they stuck with or returned to a previous direction at some point, even if there's no chance.
Looking at the poll online, I probably would have voted for a Shadow game too. He was a new and interesting character at the time, there was something new to experience than creating a Knuckles, Tails, ....or Espio game.
A Shadow game kind of automatically calls for something slightly Grimdark-ish... don't tell me you didn't get even a slight boner when you saw the preview of Sonic practically dying in front of Shadow when he was holding that gun. Yes they ruined the execution in many aspects and took a risk.
When I was looking up plot holes online I didn't come across those particular ones. Edited by Havoc the Tenrec, Feb 4 2014, 02:57 AM.
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| -Kay G. Radley- | Feb 4 2014, 03:03 AM Post #1815 |
is really Sol Badguy
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