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Topic Started: Jun 7 2011, 02:34:14 AM (846 Views)
Nova
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Since I realized this was absent.

Just waiting for more posts to come in at this point. While I don't mind just having three RPers post, Lemon, rn7, and Purg indicated interest, so I'd like to at least wait a little bit for one or more of them, so that no one feels left behind.
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rn7
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dont wait for me, just go
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Nova
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Still would prefer to wait for Purg (Lemon said he's busy, so waiting on him might not be the best move). Won't wait for too long, though, since people can just catch up later, as well.
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rn7
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isn't climbing up worse than climbing down? hell, you'd make do just rolling boulders down. how can they lose, they have the high ground!
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Nova
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Boulders wouldn't work. Besides that, who said they have to climb up? The invading force is the one that needs to climb up or down, unless it's to cut off supply routes.

I'd also imagine it'd be easier to defend against aerial attacks, outside of bombs.
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rn7
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The area is a bowl right? something like \___/ ?

that's just about the worst position to be if youre down in the middle. catapults, arrows, and basically any other projectile are at maximum efficiency, and you're extremely susceptible to being surrounded. you have no viewpoints nor places to scout, and your escape routes are limited.

if the place was on the hill instead, that would be much more defensible
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Lemon
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I didn't know you could change this

I dunno, I imagine this is a pretty big city, since older places usually have wider homes than taller ones.
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rn7
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that matters how?
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Nova
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rn7
Jun 14 2011, 04:56:05 AM
The area is a bowl right? something like \___/ ?

that's just about the worst position to be if youre down in the middle. catapults, arrows, and basically any other projectile are at maximum efficiency, and you're extremely susceptible to being surrounded. you have no viewpoints nor places to scout, and your escape routes are limited.

if the place was on the hill instead, that would be much more defensible


The safety of a "city on the hill" is an old paradigm that never really worked in the first place, at least not better than a city in a valley would.

"Maximum efficiency," huh? What does that even mean, and where does it come from? Because gravity is helping you? That doesn't matter one bit. Projectiles will be just as lethal either way (lol @ arrows, by the way--seriously?). Projectiles are actually worse to use when your enemy is in the middle of a semi-bowl-shape like that, because the projectile users have to be standing at the edge to even know where to fire. Projectiles are much easier to fire to the top of a hill than they are to the base of a valley because of trees and other obstructions, provided you have the firepower (which is obviously the case here, no?). Trajectory is simple to calculate either way, but you can't do much if you can't see where you're aiming. If it's a valley down there, it's not just the city there, so you could be aiming at empty space (or trees, like I said) if you haven't been planning for a long time. Don't forget that one side is a mountain, too.

"Extremely susceptible to being surrounded." Oh? And how is this not the case when you're on top of a hill? To leave you have to go down the hill, don't you? It's no different at all. In fact, we have a mountain on one side here, and it's much harder to be surrounded because of it (an opponent basically has to climb up an entire mountain, then climb down the other side--can you imagine moving an army up and down a mountain? the logistics of that would be worse than whatever it takes to evacuate civilians, though in this case we have heroes).

You certainly do have places to scout. In fact, I'd say you're better off. The city would probably send its scouts off long before an invading force would come, on scouting duty, so the scouts wouldn't have to worry about going up the hill or the mountain, only going back down (which, you say, is easier). It would take them less time to get back and report the attack.

And the viewpoints don't matter at all. The enemy has just as difficult a time seeing you as you have of seeing the enemy in this scenario, and just as easy of a time if you place yourself on a plateau.

Meanwhile, your city on the hill means that scouts have to climb *up* to report back. As for viewpoints? Weather ggnore.

And Lemon is absolutely right. A city of 10,000 isn't like a small village. Boulders? Really, rn? Really? Do you think a boulder could even crush your average American living room? And that's just one part of one house. Even if this city were compact, arrows and boulders? Seriously? lol
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rn7
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Now say you're under siege by an army. One city is in a valley, the other on top of a hill. Unless they have aerial recon, the city on the hill's defenses cannot be scouted beforehand, unless the invaders go to the trouble of infiltrating beforehand.

Consider the valley now. All you need to scout are binoculars and a good vantage point.

Back to the hill. If the army is on the low ground, the catapults it employs must first defeat the natural geography (the hill) and then the walls of the city.

Valley. The catapult, given the advantage of higher ground, can completely bypass the walls. Similar situation for arrows or any projectile weapons. Standing on the edge doesn't really have to do with anything unless you're afraid of falling or something.

Consider means of attack. Hill.The invaders must walk up the hill, where their approach is clearly seen by their defenders.

Valley. The invaders can rush in, do damage, fan out and scatter as the defenders are confused and scrambled. Escape is easier, but the initial strike is much harder.

Trees and obstructions work both ways. However, if you have the high ground, you have more vantage points to pick from. You can pick a point where the obstructions are minimal or out of the way.

For a real life example, look at Switzerland. Located at the top of the mountain, it has just about never been invaded and is probably the most defensible country in Europe. Valleys are usually settled due to fertile land and flat areas, rather than defensibility. Though if you do have a real example of a defensible valley I'm open to it.

The boulders thing was a joke really, but the same principle can apply, with catapults or fire or the like. The bigger the city is, the harder it is to defend completely, so simple harassment from boulders or landslides can do significant damage for very little effort. You never get that opportunity in a hill settlement.

Any way, I've had my say. I'm not sure if I convinced you or will be able to, but it's not that big of a deal to me, given my not-entirely-serious responses.

also: lol i keep pronouncing Vale as Valle
Edited by rn7, Jun 14 2011, 06:25:52 PM.
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Nova
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Quote:
 
Any way, I've had my say. I'm not sure if I convinced you or will be able to, but it's not that big of a deal to me, given my not-entirely-serious responses.


The reason your argument doesn't convince me is because 1.) everything you said applies to both the valley and the hill. You can scout the city's defenses below the hill by using binoculars too, for example. And 2.) the specifics matter. How big is this hill? How often does the weather go bad in this region? Is there a forest in the valley? and things like that. And the specifics haven't been described (and I wouldn't care to describe them).

The one thing that isn't described by the above two problems is the issue of catapults. I still don't see how the catapults attacking up the hill have a harder time doing so. If you adjust the trajectory enough, you can go over the walls either way. Also, forests, crags or spires jutting from the mountain, and other obstructions can prevent the valley city from getting hit, unless the dudes firing are standing at the edge, in which case it's the same as the hill case (but the hill can be hit from farther away because it's easier to see). What prevents the hill city from getting hit besides walls? Clouds? If there's a forest, you're not seeing the invaders coming anyway, since they have to go through that forest first (I'd imagine the hill is also a mountain, in this case).

Dunno what you mean by initial strike being harder. You can see the invaders coming either way.

Also, that Switzerland has never been attacked doesn't prove it's extremely defensible. All it says is . . . well, exactly that, that Switzerland has never been attacked. I would be more convinced if Switzerland *had* been attacked, and it had managed to resist by using its geography to its advantage. Do you have an example of *that*?

On topic, I like the dual guitar case thing. That was neat.
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Lemon
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I didn't know you could change this

I just assume the city is big enough in radius that the 'valley' consists of like a 10 degree slope or less. Anything more would make farming kinda hard imo.
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rn7
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Sun Tsu's Art of War:

Quote:
 
Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hasten downwards.

It is a military axiom not to advance uphill against the enemy nor to oppose him when he comes down hill.

Camp in high places, facing the sun. Do not climb heights in order to fight. So much for mountain warfare.

Moor your craft higher up than the enemy, and facing the sun. Do not move upstream to meet the enemy.

In dry, level country, take up an easily accessible position with rising ground to your right and on your rear, so that the danger may be in front, and safety lie behind.

All armies prefer high ground to low, and sunny places to dark.

When you come to a hill or bank, occupy the sunny side with the slope on your right rear. Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.

With regard to precipitous heights, if you are beforehand with your adversary, you should occupy the raised and sunny spots, and there wait for him to come up.



And so on and so forth. If this cannot convince you, nothing will.
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rn7
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Jun 15 2011, 12:06:06 AM
I just assume the city is big enough in radius that the 'valley' consists of like a 10 degree slope or less. Anything more would make farming kinda hard imo.
Valleys are due to two faults separating in different directions, so the land in the middle is generally extremely flat.

It starts something like this:

-----
--\/--
--\_____/---

Keep in mind these valleys take thousands of years to form (they separate at the speed your fingernails grow), so at the time of settlement it should have already been flat.
Edited by rn7, Jun 15 2011, 12:47:49 AM.
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Nova
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rn7
Jun 15 2011, 12:38:02 AM
Sun Tsu's Art of War:

Quote:
 
Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hasten downwards.

It is a military axiom not to advance uphill against the enemy nor to oppose him when he comes down hill.

Camp in high places, facing the sun. Do not climb heights in order to fight. So much for mountain warfare.

Moor your craft higher up than the enemy, and facing the sun. Do not move upstream to meet the enemy.

In dry, level country, take up an easily accessible position with rising ground to your right and on your rear, so that the danger may be in front, and safety lie behind.

All armies prefer high ground to low, and sunny places to dark.

When you come to a hill or bank, occupy the sunny side with the slope on your right rear. Thus you will at once act for the benefit of your soldiers and utilize the natural advantages of the ground.

With regard to precipitous heights, if you are beforehand with your adversary, you should occupy the raised and sunny spots, and there wait for him to come up.



And so on and so forth. If this cannot convince you, nothing will.
How is this supposed to be convince me? Can't tell if you're being serious or not with this, but if you're being serious, then lol. Problems with that are obvious.
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rn7
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Problems being what? Do you know who Sun Tsu is?
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CATZ
oh u

Quote:
 
2.) the specifics matter. How big is this hill? How often does the weather go bad in this region? Is there a forest in the valley? and things like that. And the specifics haven't been described (and I wouldn't care to describe them).


i figured more pertinent specifics would be "what kind of technology do they have, what kind of magic do they cast," etc. there's magic and ray guns and who knows what else in this setting...... kind of throws conventional/real life wisdom out the window, maybe vale built their place in a valley because it's fertile there and they have so much magic shit that generally no one would bother trying to attack them regardless of terrain
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Nova
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Problems being that it doesn't apply to mountains vs. valleys, and definitely doesn't apply to the RP? I could go into details on this point, but really, what does this prove?

Yeah, I know who Sun Tsu is. Given that he lived in *600 BC*, I think my issue with that quotation should be obvious.

If you do want me to specify what I think the problems are with his view as relates to this situation in the RP, I'll do so. I hesitate only because you aren't likely to respond. But if you'll respond, I'll do it.
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rn7
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Fine, I won't argue it any more.
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Nova
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Alright. Since you disagree with it in the context of the RP, feel free to exploit the weaknesses that you see with the defense.
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Lemon
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I didn't know you could change this

Valleys are apparently not what I thought they were.

My new picture of this town is helm's deep.
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Nova
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Who is still interested in this? I haven't seen Purg online in a while, so I assume he's away, and I suppose Joel will keep posting since he just joined, so the question is directed to the remaining people.
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Lemon
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I didn't know you could change this

I'll be trying to post tomorrow, ideally.
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CATZ
oh u

still going to post, just been out of town for the weekend
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rn7
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i refuse to take a leading role in this rp
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Nova
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Refuse, huh? You make it sound as though someone asked you to.

However, I'll bite: why?
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rn7
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because lazy
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Nova
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Can't really argue with that one.

Aren't you glad you only have to go down a valley and not climb a mountain?
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CATZ
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i don't find myself wondering why people refuse to take a "leading" role so much as why they insist on seeing the rp in those terms
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rn7
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oh, i didn't mean it like that

i mean i tend to lead in number of posts in an rp

and i want to give others a chance
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Lemon
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I didn't know you could change this

That style was a lot less fun to type out than I thought it would be.
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Nova
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lawl Fallout reference
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rn7
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was kinda hoping for a chance to interact, but the show must go on, i suppose
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CATZ
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Quote:
 
was kinda hoping for a chance to interact, but the show must go on, i suppose


whoops, thought about it but going's been pretty slow so i wanted to go on and make something happen
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rn7
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i understand the desire to keep moving on, but you're going to leave behind many of the slower posters

also, can you explain the world of this RP a bit more? is it a fantasy world mixed with future elements or more of a segmented world where the level of technology varies greatly between regions? Or in between or something else entirely?
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Nova
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whatever you want it to be, I suppose. I've never had an issue with people making things up in my RPs, and I don't think WJC would mind that either.

However, what I had envisioned was the second thing you said. It's a very segmented continent that used to be unified under Erik, the first hero, but that fell apart because of the increasing desertification of the world, and some areas were choked off economically and scientifically.
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CATZ
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rn7
Jun 23 2011, 01:33:40 AM
i understand the desire to keep moving on, but you're going to leave behind many of the slower posters
are any of them still here

Quote:
 
I've never had an issue with people making things up in my RPs, and I don't think WJC would mind that either.


indeed i wouldn't, i've just been trying to go off what solid has posted myself
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Nova
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wasn't sure when the attack should start, since purg and Cap'n haven't posted (dunno what Dau is doing, so I didn't address him), so I left it open. someone else feel free to begin.
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Nova
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Alright, will post in this tomorrow.
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Joel
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What do the rest of you think?" he said, turning to Joel and Johnson and the others.



Alright, so taking control of the center will help Joel do his thing. That's an advantage for the direct approach.



I'm not sure if you're breaking the fourth wall, purposely messing with me, or are confused by my character's name starting with the same letter as my name, but my character's name is Jay, not Joel.

Just clearing that up.
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Nova
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Whoops. Sorry. I mixed up your name with your character's.
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Joel
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So, is this yet another RP in which I had the last post?
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Nova
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Seems like it. No one else seems to want to post, and I've already posted. Oh, well, 20-something posts ftw!
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CATZ
oh u

still interested but i was rather hoping someone other than me & you 2 posts next, 3 man RPs never seem to live too long, but who knows, maybe those slower posters 7 mentioned are still catching up and will rejoin at any moment!

anyways, if you guys want to do 3 man rp i'm down, but i won't protest if you choose to just go ahead and lay it to rest either, whatever you guys think is best
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Joel
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As always, I'd like to see this continue.
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Nova
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I'm down if you two are. 3-man RPs may not live long, but I for one want to RP. I've found that oftentimes people just don't feel the current situation and want something new. Maybe pushing forward is the best thing to do here.

I wanted to start up a Gen V Pokemon RP, but I plan to do an LP of Black or White, so I don't want to burn myself out on Gen V before that starts. So yeah, I'm with the guy above me.

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CATZ
oh u

cool

unfortunately i'm out of town this weekend and for a bit after, maybe i can post tonight though
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Joel
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I am leaving tomorrow to go to a Jazz Band Camp. I'll be back sometime Saturday. I'm not sure if I can borrow someone's computer and do some posting or not.
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Nova
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No problem. I'll take my time posting, then, so don't worry about posting until the weekend is over.

Both you guys have fun.
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Nova
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Assuming everyone's back since the weekend's over. I'll post tomorrow.
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