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Israel and the Middle East
Topic Started: Jan 11 2009, 11:56:15 PM (298 Views)
Lukannon
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Haruhiist
Your thoughts? Israel in Gaza obviously, but also on the general dynamic of the area.
Yuuno-anon
 
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Pump Noodle
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I don't think we should be supporting Israel at all, unless it was in resolving the issues in a peaceful manner.
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I haven't been paying attention, but I from what I understand, Israel gave back Gaza to someone on the terms that they become peaceful. Then they were harbouring terrorists, so Israel's taking their stuff back. That sounds fair enough to me. >_>
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Lukannon
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Israel invaded Gaza earlier and gave it back in 2005. Then Palestine elected Hamas to govern, and Israel locked down its borders.

We can argue over what Hamas is, but there's one thing that can't be argued, and that is that it is a legitimate, democratically elected government, albeit one that doesn't act very much like one. The fact that the Western world blatantly rejects its legitimacy based on its aims is ridiculous.
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Jaguarman117
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We really shouldn't give half a shit unless they attack us. Seriously it's this kind of "heroism" that got us back in Vietnam and Afghanistan. America needs to mind it's own buisness more often.
[size=7]You shot *Insert team-member name here*, you team killing fucktard!

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Lukannon
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Afghanistan WAS America minding its own business, you ignorant brat. The original rationale for the invasion was the fact that the Taliban refused to give up the members of Al Qaeda that America was asking for. "Harboring enemy hostiles," that was the reason.

Vietnam wasn't even 'heroism,' but a choice made for the sake of stopping Communism and the Soviet Union's spreading influence. It's not much different from the other proxy wars of the 1900's...except for how America actually fought without a proxy and how everyone knows about it, unlike the others.

Even in the Middle East, the America is STILL only trying to protect its interests; Saddam Hussein was an ally of America until he tried to invade Kuwait, but having an unfriendly government that used to be a trade partner is always bad news. By taking out Saddam and inserting a government that owes its existence to American intervention, the United States guaranteed that the Iraqi government would at least be open to trade, if not entirely friendly. In Israel's case, not only has America been a long-time ally(especially given the massive influence the Zionists have in Congress((hell, Rahm Emanuel's a Zionist and he's Obama's Chief of Staff))), but at this point it's the only friendly nation and vector of influence America has in the Middle East. Granted, most of the Arab hostility comes from the fact that America did meddle so much, but that's irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning such actions, but your view is naive and ignorant.
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Jaguarman117
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Fine, but foreign relations really need to get back to 2 main aims. 1.Avoid making enemies, 2.Help out in natural disaster situations.

Everything else need to be secondary.

Anyway as for the actual topic (sorry about derailing it sort of) I'm Israel's side. They gave up Gaza out of good will, and hey get rockets up the ass in return. Not much other choice but to take the land back/get rid of Hamas.
[size=7]You shot *Insert team-member name here*, you team killing fucktard!

Yeah, that's great, now hurry up and die you fucking prick.[/size]

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Lukannon
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I don't necessarily disagree with that. If only America would focus on the "not making enemies bit" rather than turning that into "not making enemies in non-Third World countries."

As for the Rockets up the ass, Israel sealed off Gaza as soon as Hamas was elected. I really doubt they gave up Gaza out of good will either, given that they still hold onto a lot of Palestinian private property(and that's according to reports FROM ISRAEL, mind you), shot a couple hundred children at checkpoints, and kept drones flying in Palestinian air space so often that people have hearing and post-traumatic stress disorders.

The fact is that Israel was essentially starving Gaza for doing nothing more than electing Hamas to power. That's ridiculous, and it's equally ridiculous to expect that Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians will roll over and take that. A ceasefire MUST come from the aggressor, not the defender, and Israel has always been the aggressor since they stepped out of the boundaries drawn by the 1948 UN Partition Plan.
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Millon De Floss
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I've got a very different approach than to the above guy. Mostly because I'm Jewish and Conservative and support Israel fully AFTER looking at the facts.

I think Bibi sums it up for me.

Bibi Netanyahu
 
History has shown us time and again that what starts with attacks on the Jews eventually ends up engulfing many others.

This Iranian regime is fueled by an extreme fundamentalism that burst onto the world scene three decades ago after lying dormant for centuries. In the past thirty years, this fanaticism has swept the globe with a murderous violence and cold-blooded impartiality in its choice of victims. It has callously slaughtered Moslems and Christians, Jews and Hindus, and many others. Though it is comprised of different offshoots, the adherents of this unforgiving creed seek to return humanity to medieval times.

Wherever they can, they impose a backward regimented society where women, minorities, gays or anyone not deemed to be a true believer is brutally subjugated. The struggle against this fanaticism does not pit faith against faith nor civilization against civilization.

It pits civilization against barbarism, the 21st century against the 9th century, those who sanctify life against those who glorify death.

The primitivism of the 9th century ought to be no match for the progress of the 21st century. The allure of freedom, the power of technology, the reach of communications should surely win the day. Ultimately, the past cannot triumph over the future. And the future offers all nations magnificent bounties of hope. The pace of progress is growing exponentially.

It took us centuries to get from the printing press to the telephone, decades to get from the telephone to the personal computer, and only a few years to get from the personal computer to the internet.

What seemed impossible a few years ago is already outdated, and we can scarcely fathom the changes that are yet to come. We will crack the genetic code. We will cure the incurable. We will lengthen our lives. We will find a cheap alternative to fossil fuels and clean up the planet.

I am proud that my country Israel is at the forefront of these advances – by leading innovations in science and technology, medicine and biology, agriculture and water, energy and the environment. These innovations the world over offer humanity a sunlit future of unimagined promise.

But if the most primitive fanaticism can acquire the most deadly weapons, the march of history could be reversed for a time. And like the belated victory over the Nazis, the forces of progress and freedom will prevail only after an horrific toll of blood and fortune has been exacted from mankind. That is why the greatest threat facing the world today is the marriage between religious fanaticism and the weapons of mass destruction.

The most urgent challenge facing this body is to prevent the tyrants of Tehran from acquiring nuclear weapons. Are the member states of the United Nations up to that challenge? Will the international community confront a despotism that terrorizes its own people as they bravely stand up for freedom?

Will it take action against the dictators who stole an election in broad daylight and gunned down Iranian protesters who died in the streets choking in their own blood? Will the international community thwart the world's most pernicious sponsors and practitioners of terrorism?

Above all, will the international community stop the terrorist regime of Iran from developing atomic weapons, thereby endangering the peace of the entire world?

The people of Iran are courageously standing up to this regime. People of goodwill around the world stand with them, as do the thousands who have been protesting outside this hall. Will the United Nations stand by their side?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The jury is still out on the United Nations, and recent signs are not encouraging. Rather than condemning the terrorists and their Iranian patrons, some here have condemned their victims. That is exactly what a recent UN report on Gaza did, falsely equating the terrorists with those they targeted.

For eight long years, Hamas fired from Gaza thousands of missiles, mortars and rockets on nearby Israeli cities. Year after year, as these missiles were deliberately hurled at our civilians, not a single UN resolution was passed condemning those criminal attacks. We heard nothing – absolutely nothing – from the UN Human Rights Council, a misnamed institution if there ever was one.

In 2005, hoping to advance peace, Israel unilaterally withdrew from every inch of Gaza. It dismantled 21 settlements and uprooted over 8,000 Israelis. We didn't get peace. Instead we got an Iranian backed terror base fifty miles from Tel Aviv. Life in Israeli towns and cities next to Gaza became a nightmare. You see, the Hamas rocket attacks not only continued, they increased tenfold. Again, the UN was silent.

Finally, after eight years of this unremitting assault, Israel was finally forced to respond. But how should we have responded? Well, there is only one example in history of thousands of rockets being fired on a country's civilian population. It happened when the Nazis rocketed British cities during World War II. During that war, the allies leveled German cities, causing hundreds of thousands of casualties. Israel chose to respond differently. Faced with an enemy committing a double war crime of firing on civilians while hiding behind civilians – Israel sought to conduct surgical strikes against the rocket launchers.

That was no easy task because the terrorists were firing missiles from homes and schools, using mosques as weapons depots and ferreting explosives in ambulances. Israel, by contrast, tried to minimize casualties by urging Palestinian civilians to vacate the targeted areas.

We dropped countless flyers over their homes, sent thousands of text messages and called thousands of cell phones asking people to leave. Never has a country gone to such extraordinary lengths to remove the enemy's civilian population from harm's way.

Yet faced with such a clear case of aggressor and victim, who did the UN Human Rights Council decide to condemn? Israel. A democracy legitimately defending itself against terror is morally hanged, drawn and quartered, and given an unfair trial to boot.

By these twisted standards, the UN Human Rights Council would have dragged Roosevelt and Churchill to the dock as war criminals. What a perversion of truth. What a perversion of justice.

Delegates of the United Nations,

Will you accept this farce?

Because if you do, the United Nations would revert to its darkest days, when the worst violators of human rights sat in judgment against the law-abiding democracies, when Zionism was equated with racism and when an automatic majority could declare that the earth is flat.

If this body does not reject this report, it would send a message to terrorists everywhere: Terror pays; if you launch your attacks from densely populated areas, you will win immunity. And in condemning Israel, this body would also deal a mortal blow to peace. Here's why.

When Israel left Gaza, many hoped that the missile attacks would stop. Others believed that at the very least, Israel would have international legitimacy to exercise its right of self-defense. What legitimacy? What self-defense?

The same UN that cheered Israel as it left Gaza and promised to back our right of self-defense now accuses us –my people, my country - of war crimes? And for what? For acting responsibly in self-defense. What a travesty!

Israel justly defended itself against terror. This biased and unjust report is a clear-cut test for all governments. Will you stand with Israel or will you stand with the terrorists?

We must know the answer to that question now. Now and not later. Because if Israel is again asked to take more risks for peace, we must know today that you will stand with us tomorrow. Only if we have the confidence that we can defend ourselves can we take further risks for peace.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

All of Israel wants peace.

Any time an Arab leader genuinely wanted peace with us, we made peace. We made peace with Egypt led by Anwar Sadat. We made peace with Jordan led by King Hussein. And if the Palestinians truly want peace, I and my government, and the people of Israel, will make peace. But we want a genuine peace, a defensible peace, a permanent peace. In 1947, this body voted to establish two states for two peoples – a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted that resolution. The Arabs rejected it.

We ask the Palestinians to finally do what they have refused to do for 62 years: Say yes to a Jewish state. Just as we are asked to recognize a nation-state for the Palestinian people, the Palestinians must be asked to recognize the nation state of the Jewish people. The Jewish people are not foreign conquerors in the Land of Israel. This is the land of our forefathers.

Inscribed on the walls outside this building is the great Biblical vision of peace: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation. They shall learn war no more." These words were spoken by the Jewish prophet Isaiah 2,800 years ago as he walked in my country, in my city, in the hills of Judea and in the streets of Jerusalem.

We are not strangers to this land. It is our homeland. As deeply connected as we are to this land, we recognize that the Palestinians also live there and want a home of their own. We want to live side by side with them, two free peoples living in peace, prosperity and dignity.

But we must have security. The Palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves except those handful of powers that could endanger Israel.

That is why a Palestinian state must be effectively demilitarized. We don't want another Gaza, another Iranian backed terror base abutting Jerusalem and perched on the hills a few kilometers from Tel Aviv.

We want peace.


This is basically my view.
Edited by Millon De Floss, Oct 22 2009, 05:39:07 PM.
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January 12th, what a way to gravedig.
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Phoenix_Kensai
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...Wow, we had a serious discussion here as recently as January?
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notice the low amout of posts.
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It's not going to be low at this rate.
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Oct 22 2009, 10:16:33 PM
It's not going to be low at this rate.
True, but is also no longer serious.
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Millon De Floss
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Oct 23 2009, 02:08:46 AM
Max_Stat_Boyd
Oct 22 2009, 10:16:33 PM
It's not going to be low at this rate.
True, but is also no longer serious.
Lol, absolutely true.

Sorry guys, just had to toss in my two cents.
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Pump Noodle
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To be serious I will probably never support Israel. I don't see why they were given that land. Nothing against the Jewish people.
Life is going faster than I'll ever be able to keep up with... and that's good. Life wouldn't be fun otherwise, eh?

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rn7
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Way back when, Israel used to be home to the Jews, but during the Crusades and all that crap they were forced out.

It's like returning the Native Americans back to their homes after we forced 'em out.

That's not me taking a side, mind you.
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Pump Noodle
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Weren't the Crusades like, 900 or so years ago though?
By that reasoning, give half of Europe back to Italy, and reform Rome? I dunno. Maybe I'm retarded and should stop talking. =)
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rn7
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But the Romans weren't forced out from their homeland. And Israel is hardly the size of the entirety of Europe.

And you bring up another question. Is 900 years too long to come back to their ancestral homes? 750 years, 100? Hong Kong was under British rule for 99 years and still China demanded it back. How long is too long?
Edited by rn7, Oct 24 2009, 10:47:08 PM.
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Pump Noodle
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I don't know. I really don't. I think 900 years is a bit much. In that 900 year span, other people lived there. After those who have taken from the others have died, and generations pass, the land means just as much if not more to those who live there now. If Canada were to return all of its land to the natives, and I was booted, I'd have a serious problem. It's my homeland too, I was born here, raised here, lived here. Same as my parents, and my grandparents. I think eventually the idea of an Ancestral home loses value. It would be best if everyone could share it if they all felt a certain attachment to it, but that's not going to happen. I guess in the end there is no perfect solution.
Life is going faster than I'll ever be able to keep up with... and that's good. Life wouldn't be fun otherwise, eh?

"IT IS A GOD THING"
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rn7
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I agree for the most part with you. Putting Jews back into Israel was poorly planned and executed, and also interfered with the people already living there. Also, the fact that Britain and France screwed up the Middle East by drawing arbitrary and random borders everywhere certainly didn't help.
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Like Iraq?

Gogo country that really never should have been!
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Nobody really wanted the Jews so they stuffed them in Israel.

>____>
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Nova
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Wow, this reminds me all over again of why I really dislike humanity.
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Sucks for you.
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rn7
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They're all in it for the money, those humans.
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I suggest we invade their planet as the first step in a convoluted plot to teach them the evils of materialism and the true meaning of friendship.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGwhxMOz9vo
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Nova
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rn7
Oct 28 2009, 04:21:45 AM
They're all in it for the money, those humans.
Naw, they just suck. To persist in primordialism in the face of 21st century technology and medicine is absolutely absurd.
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It's not just about borders, silly human. And are you really qualified to say that? Seems a bit pretentious to say all of humanity is the same. Like ascending beyond the normal parameters of racism to some type of uber-kill-all-humans mindset.
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Nova
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Obviously "humanity" is synecdoche for the specific portion of humanity acting this way. .

Like, we say the "sun streamed in through the window," but really, it's not the whole sun that's streaming in, only the rays of light emitted by the sun. 4

And you don't need qualifications to have opinions.
Edited by Nova, Oct 28 2009, 04:40:20 PM.
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rn7
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But you haven't put up with the same experiences and struggles that they have. It's pretentious to form an overreaching opinion about these people without knowing the full story.
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Nova
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Oct 28 2009, 04:25:00 PM
But you haven't put up with the same experiences and struggles that they have. It's pretentious to form an overreaching opinion about these people without knowing the full story.


First, why do you assume I don't know the full story?

Second, so no one not in that exact situation can form an opinion on it? Is that what you're claiming? So the Supreme Court members can't form overreaching opinions about abortion and people who have abortions (because by making it illegal they would be essentially calling these people immoral) because they themselves have never experienced unwanted pregnancy or the need to abort a pregnancy?

I mean, what about the terrorists who attacked the USA during 9/11? Do you want me to first encounter their "experiences and struggles" before saying that they're stupid and evil people? No, I certainly don't have to do that; their actions speak louder to me than their histories can ever do. A lot of us have shitty lives and are put in strenuous situations. That doesn't justify murder, betrayal, and petty revenge, especially not on a large scale. With technology and medicine having attained such an advanced state, one would think that this type of idiotic behavior would perish. But no. It continues yet. If humans can be praised for their capacity for ingenuity, then they also be degraded for their capacity for petty violence.

Had I said, "they're good people; they're doing what they had to do," would that have been pretentious? Yet that also is forming opinions of something with which I don't have personal experience, is it not? You may dislike the way I'm approaching this, but you certainly can't say I'm being pretentious.
Edited by Nova, Oct 28 2009, 05:03:04 PM.
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a) I'm pretty sure he did.

b) C'mon, so close, Godwin's Law, Godwin's Law!
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Oct 28 2009, 06:55:36 PM
a) I'm pretty sure he did.

b) C'mon, so close, Godwin's Law, Godwin's Law!
a.) that's easily editable
b.) wha
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rn7
Oct 28 2009, 04:25:00 PM
But you haven't put up with the same experiences and struggles that they have. It's pretentious to form an overreaching opinion about these people without knowing the full story.
Yeah, what are you? A NAZI?
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This one is but flesh and faith and is the more deluded...
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We just need enough pizza and enough herbs, and bam, instant best buds man.
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