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| Israel and the Middle East | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 11 2009, 11:56:15 PM (298 Views) | |
| Lukannon | Jan 11 2009, 11:56:15 PM Post #1 |
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Your thoughts? Israel in Gaza obviously, but also on the general dynamic of the area. |
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| Pump Noodle | Jan 12 2009, 12:19:19 AM Post #2 |
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le Perdu
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I don't think we should be supporting Israel at all, unless it was in resolving the issues in a peaceful manner. |
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Life is going faster than I'll ever be able to keep up with... and that's good. Life wouldn't be fun otherwise, eh? "IT IS A GOD THING" | |
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| DOUCHE | Jan 12 2009, 12:24:52 AM Post #3 |
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Guy who is b7, for Great Justice.
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I haven't been paying attention, but I from what I understand, Israel gave back Gaza to someone on the terms that they become peaceful. Then they were harbouring terrorists, so Israel's taking their stuff back. That sounds fair enough to me. >_> |
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| Lukannon | Jan 12 2009, 02:17:44 AM Post #4 |
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Israel invaded Gaza earlier and gave it back in 2005. Then Palestine elected Hamas to govern, and Israel locked down its borders. We can argue over what Hamas is, but there's one thing that can't be argued, and that is that it is a legitimate, democratically elected government, albeit one that doesn't act very much like one. The fact that the Western world blatantly rejects its legitimacy based on its aims is ridiculous. |
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| Jaguarman117 | Jan 12 2009, 02:52:17 PM Post #5 |
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The spirit of the Jaguar!
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We really shouldn't give half a shit unless they attack us. Seriously it's this kind of "heroism" that got us back in Vietnam and Afghanistan. America needs to mind it's own buisness more often. |
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[size=7]You shot *Insert team-member name here*, you team killing fucktard! Yeah, that's great, now hurry up and die you fucking prick.[/size] To anyone who disagrees with me: Put that in a memo entitled, "Shit I already know!" I'm not crazy, I'm totally and completely sane. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go blow up that dead body. | |
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| Lukannon | Jan 12 2009, 05:06:38 PM Post #6 |
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Afghanistan WAS America minding its own business, you ignorant brat. The original rationale for the invasion was the fact that the Taliban refused to give up the members of Al Qaeda that America was asking for. "Harboring enemy hostiles," that was the reason. Vietnam wasn't even 'heroism,' but a choice made for the sake of stopping Communism and the Soviet Union's spreading influence. It's not much different from the other proxy wars of the 1900's...except for how America actually fought without a proxy and how everyone knows about it, unlike the others. Even in the Middle East, the America is STILL only trying to protect its interests; Saddam Hussein was an ally of America until he tried to invade Kuwait, but having an unfriendly government that used to be a trade partner is always bad news. By taking out Saddam and inserting a government that owes its existence to American intervention, the United States guaranteed that the Iraqi government would at least be open to trade, if not entirely friendly. In Israel's case, not only has America been a long-time ally(especially given the massive influence the Zionists have in Congress((hell, Rahm Emanuel's a Zionist and he's Obama's Chief of Staff))), but at this point it's the only friendly nation and vector of influence America has in the Middle East. Granted, most of the Arab hostility comes from the fact that America did meddle so much, but that's irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning such actions, but your view is naive and ignorant. |
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| Jaguarman117 | Jan 12 2009, 08:56:18 PM Post #7 |
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The spirit of the Jaguar!
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Fine, but foreign relations really need to get back to 2 main aims. 1.Avoid making enemies, 2.Help out in natural disaster situations. Everything else need to be secondary. Anyway as for the actual topic (sorry about derailing it sort of) I'm Israel's side. They gave up Gaza out of good will, and hey get rockets up the ass in return. Not much other choice but to take the land back/get rid of Hamas. |
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[size=7]You shot *Insert team-member name here*, you team killing fucktard! Yeah, that's great, now hurry up and die you fucking prick.[/size] To anyone who disagrees with me: Put that in a memo entitled, "Shit I already know!" I'm not crazy, I'm totally and completely sane. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go blow up that dead body. | |
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| Lukannon | Jan 12 2009, 09:10:48 PM Post #8 |
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I don't necessarily disagree with that. If only America would focus on the "not making enemies bit" rather than turning that into "not making enemies in non-Third World countries." As for the Rockets up the ass, Israel sealed off Gaza as soon as Hamas was elected. I really doubt they gave up Gaza out of good will either, given that they still hold onto a lot of Palestinian private property(and that's according to reports FROM ISRAEL, mind you), shot a couple hundred children at checkpoints, and kept drones flying in Palestinian air space so often that people have hearing and post-traumatic stress disorders. The fact is that Israel was essentially starving Gaza for doing nothing more than electing Hamas to power. That's ridiculous, and it's equally ridiculous to expect that Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians will roll over and take that. A ceasefire MUST come from the aggressor, not the defender, and Israel has always been the aggressor since they stepped out of the boundaries drawn by the 1948 UN Partition Plan. |
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| Millon De Floss | Oct 22 2009, 05:38:40 PM Post #9 |
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I've got a very different approach than to the above guy. Mostly because I'm Jewish and Conservative and support Israel fully AFTER looking at the facts. I think Bibi sums it up for me.
This is basically my view. Edited by Millon De Floss, Oct 22 2009, 05:39:07 PM.
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Dear anyone who ever says FML... Life is not ****able! I can't put my penis in it or shove it into my vagina! | |
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| rn7 | Oct 22 2009, 05:45:52 PM Post #10 |
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General
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January 12th, what a way to gravedig. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Phoenix_Kensai | Oct 22 2009, 08:25:09 PM Post #11 |
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Because now is only now.
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...Wow, we had a serious discussion here as recently as January? |
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| Hell if I know | Oct 22 2009, 09:59:53 PM Post #12 |
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notice the low amout of posts. |
![]() lessthanthree. | |
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| Max_Stat_Boyd | Oct 22 2009, 10:16:33 PM Post #13 |
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Menace to society
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It's not going to be low at this rate. |
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| Jackytf | Oct 23 2009, 02:08:46 AM Post #14 |
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Alt, and son, of Okami
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True, but is also no longer serious. |
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R.I.P.: Lauder, the lv. 1 Shadowmaster Henreid, some lv. 9 Wanderer and Bobby, a lv. 1 Officer ![]()
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| Millon De Floss | Oct 23 2009, 03:55:36 AM Post #15 |
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Lol, absolutely true. Sorry guys, just had to toss in my two cents. |
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Dear anyone who ever says FML... Life is not ****able! I can't put my penis in it or shove it into my vagina! | |
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| Pump Noodle | Oct 24 2009, 08:58:19 PM Post #16 |
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le Perdu
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To be serious I will probably never support Israel. I don't see why they were given that land. Nothing against the Jewish people. |
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Life is going faster than I'll ever be able to keep up with... and that's good. Life wouldn't be fun otherwise, eh? "IT IS A GOD THING" | |
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| rn7 | Oct 24 2009, 09:16:06 PM Post #17 |
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Way back when, Israel used to be home to the Jews, but during the Crusades and all that crap they were forced out. It's like returning the Native Americans back to their homes after we forced 'em out. That's not me taking a side, mind you. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Pump Noodle | Oct 24 2009, 10:03:13 PM Post #18 |
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le Perdu
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Weren't the Crusades like, 900 or so years ago though? By that reasoning, give half of Europe back to Italy, and reform Rome? I dunno. Maybe I'm retarded and should stop talking. =) |
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Life is going faster than I'll ever be able to keep up with... and that's good. Life wouldn't be fun otherwise, eh? "IT IS A GOD THING" | |
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| rn7 | Oct 24 2009, 10:46:38 PM Post #19 |
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General
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But the Romans weren't forced out from their homeland. And Israel is hardly the size of the entirety of Europe. And you bring up another question. Is 900 years too long to come back to their ancestral homes? 750 years, 100? Hong Kong was under British rule for 99 years and still China demanded it back. How long is too long? Edited by rn7, Oct 24 2009, 10:47:08 PM.
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![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Pump Noodle | Oct 24 2009, 10:57:26 PM Post #20 |
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le Perdu
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I don't know. I really don't. I think 900 years is a bit much. In that 900 year span, other people lived there. After those who have taken from the others have died, and generations pass, the land means just as much if not more to those who live there now. If Canada were to return all of its land to the natives, and I was booted, I'd have a serious problem. It's my homeland too, I was born here, raised here, lived here. Same as my parents, and my grandparents. I think eventually the idea of an Ancestral home loses value. It would be best if everyone could share it if they all felt a certain attachment to it, but that's not going to happen. I guess in the end there is no perfect solution. |
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Life is going faster than I'll ever be able to keep up with... and that's good. Life wouldn't be fun otherwise, eh? "IT IS A GOD THING" | |
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| rn7 | Oct 24 2009, 11:15:23 PM Post #21 |
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General
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I agree for the most part with you. Putting Jews back into Israel was poorly planned and executed, and also interfered with the people already living there. Also, the fact that Britain and France screwed up the Middle East by drawing arbitrary and random borders everywhere certainly didn't help. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Hell if I know | Oct 25 2009, 07:15:23 PM Post #22 |
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Like Iraq? Gogo country that really never should have been! |
![]() lessthanthree. | |
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| Max_Stat_Boyd | Oct 26 2009, 09:33:35 PM Post #23 |
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Menace to society
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Nobody really wanted the Jews so they stuffed them in Israel. >____> |
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| Nova | Oct 28 2009, 12:25:09 AM Post #24 |
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Administrator
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Wow, this reminds me all over again of why I really dislike humanity. |
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| CATZ | Oct 28 2009, 03:28:57 AM Post #25 |
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Sucks for you. |
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| rn7 | Oct 28 2009, 04:21:45 AM Post #26 |
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General
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They're all in it for the money, those humans. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Phoenix_Kensai | Oct 28 2009, 04:33:55 AM Post #27 |
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Because now is only now.
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I suggest we invade their planet as the first step in a convoluted plot to teach them the evils of materialism and the true meaning of friendship. |
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| Nina Mikhailovna Zarechnaya | Oct 28 2009, 06:17:52 AM Post #28 |
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apologies are all we'll ever be
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we need to show them the power of LOVE! |
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| rn7 | Oct 28 2009, 06:53:28 AM Post #29 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGwhxMOz9vo |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Nova | Oct 28 2009, 02:50:32 PM Post #30 |
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Naw, they just suck. To persist in primordialism in the face of 21st century technology and medicine is absolutely absurd. |
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| rn7 | Oct 28 2009, 03:28:06 PM Post #31 |
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It's not just about borders, silly human. And are you really qualified to say that? Seems a bit pretentious to say all of humanity is the same. Like ascending beyond the normal parameters of racism to some type of uber-kill-all-humans mindset. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Nova | Oct 28 2009, 04:02:22 PM Post #32 |
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Obviously "humanity" is synecdoche for the specific portion of humanity acting this way. . Like, we say the "sun streamed in through the window," but really, it's not the whole sun that's streaming in, only the rays of light emitted by the sun. 4 And you don't need qualifications to have opinions. Edited by Nova, Oct 28 2009, 04:40:20 PM.
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| rn7 | Oct 28 2009, 04:25:00 PM Post #33 |
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But you haven't put up with the same experiences and struggles that they have. It's pretentious to form an overreaching opinion about these people without knowing the full story. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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| Nova | Oct 28 2009, 04:39:48 PM Post #34 |
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First, why do you assume I don't know the full story? Second, so no one not in that exact situation can form an opinion on it? Is that what you're claiming? So the Supreme Court members can't form overreaching opinions about abortion and people who have abortions (because by making it illegal they would be essentially calling these people immoral) because they themselves have never experienced unwanted pregnancy or the need to abort a pregnancy? I mean, what about the terrorists who attacked the USA during 9/11? Do you want me to first encounter their "experiences and struggles" before saying that they're stupid and evil people? No, I certainly don't have to do that; their actions speak louder to me than their histories can ever do. A lot of us have shitty lives and are put in strenuous situations. That doesn't justify murder, betrayal, and petty revenge, especially not on a large scale. With technology and medicine having attained such an advanced state, one would think that this type of idiotic behavior would perish. But no. It continues yet. If humans can be praised for their capacity for ingenuity, then they also be degraded for their capacity for petty violence. Had I said, "they're good people; they're doing what they had to do," would that have been pretentious? Yet that also is forming opinions of something with which I don't have personal experience, is it not? You may dislike the way I'm approaching this, but you certainly can't say I'm being pretentious. Edited by Nova, Oct 28 2009, 05:03:04 PM.
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| Hell if I know | Oct 28 2009, 06:55:36 PM Post #35 |
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a) I'm pretty sure he did. b) C'mon, so close, Godwin's Law, Godwin's Law! |
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| Nova | Oct 28 2009, 06:59:01 PM Post #36 |
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a.) that's easily editable b.) wha |
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| Android | Oct 28 2009, 07:29:43 PM Post #37 |
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woahicanhaveatitle
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Yeah, what are you? A NAZI? |
![]() This one is machine and nerve and has its mind concluded; This one is but flesh and faith and is the more deluded... | |
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| rn7 | Oct 28 2009, 09:22:14 PM Post #38 |
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We just need enough pizza and enough herbs, and bam, instant best buds man. |
![]() Savior will destroy everyone in 2009... there's still a month or two left. | |
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