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Pokemanz
Topic Started: Dec 18 2008, 07:04:24 AM (749 Views)
CATZ
oh u

Anyone feel that they play Shoddy enough to debaet one Pokemon against another in the Shoddy environment? That would be an interesting debaet IMO.
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Danoh
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'That fanfic guy' or 'That Moulder guy'

I play pokemon on wifi enough to be able to debate pokemon.

Just not skymin/rotom forms, anything else is fair game.

Besides. Mowtom is the best.

fock year, lawn mower.
A good conversation is like a skirt, short enough to keep your interest, yet long enough to cover the subject.
Posted Image
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Lukannon
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I don't, but it'd be fun to do it anyway.
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

I'd debate Breloom against anything ever except the ubers.

And eh. I prefer the washing machine Rotom. People never expect it to use Hydro Pump on them.
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Lukannon
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Fuck Breloom T___T

Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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Sniper
Mm

I'll debate Infernape against anything
Farewell.
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Lemon
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I didn't know you could change this

Miltank for top tier.
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???, the big Softie
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cool story bro

I'll debaet Rayquaza against anything ever except the ubers.

Oh wait
cool story bro
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Lukannon
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let's do dis
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

lol

choose thy tier
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Lukannon
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um

let's just go with standard 'cuz i'm not too familiar with uu's standards atm

actually tbh i'm not too familiar with the current metagame i've been out of the loop for a few months but whatevs it seems like it'd be fun
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

Standard works, i've played tons of UU but no OU, so it should be a pretty level playing field

Now before we actually try this, we have to decide what criteria the Pokemon is being judged on. If we just say "what's best," that's way too general. For example, a Blissey vs Lucario debate would quickly dissolve into "Luke is better on offense teams"; "but Bliss is better for stall"; "ok offense > stall"; "no u." And the bottom line is that people have gotten into the top 10 with both types of teams, so, meh. Here's my proposal:

We take a team composed of the top 5 most used OU pokemon and their most used items and movesets. This leaves us with a 6th slot that needs to be filled. Each side picks a pokemon to fill that hole, explains what set it uses, and why it's the best choice for the 6th slot.
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Lukannon
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Hum

Sure, that works. Mind posting the top 5?
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

Top 5 OU Pokemon, items & sets for June.

Scizor
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
Nature/EVs: 248 Hp/252 Atk/8 Spe @ Adamant

Bullet Punch
Superpower
U-Turn
Pursuit

Heatran
Ability: Flash Fire
Item: Choice Scarf
Nature/EVs: 252 SAtk/252 Spe/4 SDef @ Naive

Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion
Dragon Pulse

Salamence
Ability: Intimidate
Item: Life Orb
Nature/EVs: 232 Atk/24 SAtk/252 Spe @ Naive

Earthquake
Outrage
Dragon Dance
Fire Blast

Tyranitar
Ability: Sand Stream
Item: Choice Scarf
Nature/EVs: 4 Hp/252 Atk/252 Spe @ Jolly

Crunch
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Pursuit

Gyarados
Ability: Intimidate
Item: Leftovers
Nature/EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def @ Adamant

Waterfall
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Earthquake

There you have it, the 5 most popular Pokemon and their most popular sets. lol, 3 choicers and 2 dragon dancers. OU isn't centralized at all!
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Lukannon
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Pffffft. Goddamn, what a ridiculous top 5. Also, I hate that Gyarados. I really want to put a Wacan Berry on it. Full offense Gyara with Leftovers? Fuck that shit!

Just at a glance, something like Vaporeon seems like it'd do fairly well (not that I'm committing myself to an argument yet). It's a good stock bulky Pokemon; takes hits like a champ, can Wish/Protect/Sub damage off, scouts stuff for a better switch, doesn't mind the Sandstorm damage. The DDers both take damage from sand, so Vaporeon's Wish support would be helpful. Alternatively you could drop the idea of having a pivot and just use an offensive team but this group doesn't really seem very conducive to that. Maybe a special attacker? Is Latias still legal?

At any rate, it might be the top 5 but I'd hate to have to use that team.
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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Purg
Now with all the power to abuse!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I am going to watch this like some kind of regal bird of prey.
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CATZ
oh u

Luk: Latias is banned, otherwise it would likely be on there. You might laugh, but meh, I assume this is what works because it's what the top 10 is chock full of. The next 5 down include the likes of Starmie, Infernape and Gengar. OU is fast-paced and geared for high offense.

If you don't like the team, we can switch it up, of course. Taking the top 5 odd-placed Pokemon (1, 3, 5, 7, 9) for example, yields a team of Scizor, Mence, Gyara, Jirachi, Infernape. Taking the top 5 even-placed Pokemon gives us Heatran, Tyranitar, Gengar, Starmie, Metagross. Or we could go down to UU which isn't hilariously centralized. No matter what we pick, though, I don't think it matters too much. We're not trying to build a realistic or effective team here, we're just trying to set conditions for a debate. Who cares if we wouldn't want to use the team we come up with, when we're not actually going to go out and use it?

Purg: lolwut. You going to join the fray or something?
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Purg
Now with all the power to abuse!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Oh, no, I deb8 like Luvdisc fights. I just think it'd be interesting to watch.
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Lukannon
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Oh no, I got that aspect entirely. Clearly we're not aiming for an optimal team, and I'm not complaining about the debate conditions, it's a perfectly valid framework. I'm just commenting on how hilariously bad an actual top 5 + 1 team would be.

OU is pretty fast paced, but iirc stall and bulky offense are still most stable, with hyper offense and heavy offense still being iffy. At any rate, top-5 team has some major problems; it has way too many Choiced Pokemon. That's not a problem in and of itself, but Gyarados and salamence are both vulnerable (the former to revenge killers/electric-types, the latter to entry hazards and revenge killing). On a normal team, who gives a crap? But once Gyarados and Salamence are out of the picture, you're basically left playing a huge prediction game with your Choice Pokemon. Which is bad.

I think I'll go ahead and go with Vaporeon, I don't really care enough to rack my brains.
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

Alrighty. I'll pick something tomorrow and try to get this off the ground, a bit late to get started tonight.
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Lukannon
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sure, no probs.
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

Lukannon
Jul 15 2010, 05:17:42 AM
Just at a glance, something like Vaporeon seems like it'd do fairly well (not that I'm committing myself to an argument yet). It's a good stock bulky Pokemon; takes hits like a champ, can Wish/Protect/Sub damage off, scouts stuff for a better switch, doesn't mind the Sandstorm damage. The DDers both take damage from sand, so Vaporeon's Wish support would be helpful. Alternatively you could drop the idea of having a pivot and just use an offensive team but this group doesn't really seem very conducive to that. Maybe a special attacker? Is Latias still legal?
lol, pokemanz debaet tiem

This really is a great team for a debaet, it has so many weaknesses and holes to be patched up, so you can come at it from plenty of different angles. I don't think you're coming at it from a good angle here, though. I present to the jury, Exhibit A:

Posted Image

What is Vaporeon doing for you compared to Cpt. Spore here? Let's examine its typing.

Resists:
Water--You already got 2 resists to this on the team, so it's not exactly a problem, and Breloom resists this too.
Fire--The team already has a whopping 4 resists to this type. lol. Another one is doing nothing for you.
Ice--2 resists for this already, and Ttar/Gyara can frequently switch into these as well, as OU ice attacks are often non-STAB ice beams coming from defensive pokemon such as lolVaporeon, and Ttar/Gyara have good special bulk to shrug them off. Especially Ttar, whose base SDef stat is effectively higher than Blissey's after accounting for the sandstorm bonus.
Steel--lolsteel. Even if this were used often, you have 3 resists anyways.

Weaknesses:
Grass--3 double-resists here, so it's pretty well covered. But then you have:
Electric--There are no resists for this on the rest of the team, and you're adding a pokemon that's weak to it. When Jolteon and Rotom come out to play, you have no resists to switch to and something is getting hurt, and if your Heatran is dead a Specs Jolteon can flat-out sweep you at the drop of a hat.

In short you're not patching up any gaps here, and you're also ripping at the edges of a nice big hole in the team. But what about Breloom?

Resists:
Water--see above
Grass--see above
Ground--2 immunities here, but the thing to note is that Earthquake is frequently paired with:
Rock--Which both of your current immunities are weak to, and which nothing on the team currently resists. Notice how the most common Gyarados set includes the EdgeQuake combo? After a DD Gyara sets up (which Vaporeon would give it a perfect opportunity to do, btw) it can hit 4 out of 5 pokemon super-effective with boosted moves, and the 5th (Scizor) can't do anything to it as all its moves are resisted (or just plain weak in the case of pursuit). But then, voile, Breloom! Breloom is one of the few pokemon to resist both earthquake and stone edge, so you don't have to play a risky guessing game against folks like Tyranitar, you just send in Breloom knowing that you'll resist the hit no matter what they pick.
Electric--see above. Breloom is one of the very few pokemon to resist both electric and rock, the only two types which the current team has no resistances to.
Dark--3 resists, so it's pretty well covered, but again, this just helps to make Breloom an even safer switch-in to Tyranitar. Breloom resists every attack on the standard ScarfTar set (Ttar's most common set), and with 2 rock weaks and choiced fire and dark attacks flying around on this team, you will be luring out enemy Ttar very quickly.

Weaknesses:
Flying/Poison/Psychic--lol, nothing uses these in OU. Even if you run into them, the team has 3 poison/psychic resists and 2 flying resists, so whatevs.
Fire/Ice--I discussed these above. This team has both these types covered six ways to Sunday, and they're the two types that are most commonly brought to bear against Breloom. This is great news because it means that Breloom will be luring in attacks and pokemon that are ideal for your two dragon dancers to set up on (for example a Swampert trying to ice punch you is Gyarados bait, or a scarf Heatran trying to fire blast you is just begging for Salamence to switch in and set up).

In short, Breloom addresses some of your biggest vulnerabilities, and his own vulnerabilities complement the rest of the team perfectly. I should also mention that Breloom absorbs status like a champ, being immune to it after one switch-in (for toxic orb to activate). Very convenient when those walls are trying to use Twave on you, which (as I've already said) nothing on the current team can absorb, and which your guys will hate as they're all offensive and mostly speed-dependent. Having something to absorb sleep whenever it comes up is nice, too.

The main attraction for Vaporeon is wishpassing, but that's pretty meh considering that you have to sacrifice your momentum in order to do that. The other guy gets a free turn or two to do whatever he wants while you're taking a time-out to bring in the offensively inept Vaporeon and use Wish. Letting the other guy take the lead like that is the last thing you want to do with such an offensive team like this one. Getting a Wish off won't help you much if it gives Gyarados a chance to come in, DD, and sweep you.

The other problem with wishpassing is that, defensively, the team is very polarized. What I mean is that you have a lot of double resists, double weaknesses and immunities going around. Every pokemon on the team has at least one immunity and 3 of them have immunities to common attack types. Every pokemon on the team has at least one double resistance except for Tyranitar. Every pokemon on the team has a double weakness. And on top of that, you've got lots of choiced pokemon. The point here? You're highly prediction-dependent, and the outcomes of those predictions are often so severe that getting a Wish won't matter. For example, let's say you're up against an enemy Scizor, and you decide to switch in your Heatran predicting that it will use U-turn. If you're right, you take a 4x resisted hit and almost no damage, so getting a wish wouldn't help you. If you're wrong and he out-predicts you, you're probably eating superpower and losing 100% of your health, in which case......getting a wish still wouldn't help you. etc.

Speaking of momentum, Breloom's the other way around in that respect. Sleep is a broken condition and Breloom has the game's only 100% accurate sleep move. Nothing's better for maintaining the momentum than generating a free turn for yourself, completely regardless of what the opponent brings in next. Heatran, Hippowdon, doesn't matter, they're all going to go off to dreamland and be unable to do anything for the next turn or two, at least. This gives you an opportunity to do whatever you want; bring in Scizor and use U-turn, bring in a dragon dancer and power up, or just have Breloom use sub and start firing off falcon punches. It's the ultimate move for keeping the momentum on your side.

And there you have it, my reasons why Breloom > Vaporeon on this team.
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Lukannon
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Well, clearly I didn't think this out very much, but that's okay I don't mind arguing a precarious position.

You're pretty much correct about the weakness/resistance matching, but one thing bothers me. We've established that the team is highly offensive and relies a lot on prediction, right? Right. But Breloom plays straight into that; although the weaknesses match, you're left with hoping the other guy doesn't predict your Breloom coming in. Although it's great at staying once it's *in* thanks to Poison Heal, Leech Seed, and Subbing, it's actual defenses aren't great, and the turn of the switch in is risky. Incidentally, Flying attacks aren't all that uncommon, with Togekiss and Skarmory always packing STAB, and things like Roserade commonly pack Sludge Bomb.

Granted, Vaporeon's weaknesses are worse, but here's the rub: unlike Breloom, it doesn't rely on typing to survive. Its special defense is more than sufficient to wall, and although its defense is lackluster, Vaporeon's high HP and EV's can add a lot of physical durability. For Breloom, a bad switch (or even a switch into a neutral attack) can mean instant death or impending death; for Vaporeon, a bad switch isn't necessarily irrecoverable. You've made the argument that a team as offensive as this one needs to maintain as much momentum as possible. I agree that momentum is important, but it's not paramount to the point that you want to maintain it at all costs. When you're playing with a team like that, every match is on a knife point. Vaporeon provides some much needed stability; it's a good all around Pokemon, and unlike Breloom, its counters and checks mostly revolve around setting up on it or outstalling it. Well, there's no need to worry about the stall game, since this team will either completely fail against stall or blow it wide open. Yawn helps check both stall Pokemon and set-up sweepers; although it neuters Vaporeon's abilities offensively, that's okay, because Vaporeon's offensive is pretty much irrelevant here. Granted, Yawn is no Spore, but it's a decent option, and it does have a minor advantage in that you can continuously use it to check things without having it rendered useless for the rest of the match.

I do have to admit that Breloom's status immunity is a really nice bonus, and it's especially important on this team, which has basically no way of preventing entry hazards from being thrown up and no real answer to status effects. But, eh.
Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

Quote:
 
You're pretty much correct about the weakness/resistance matching, but one thing bothers me. We've established that the team is highly offensive and relies a lot on prediction, right? Right. But Breloom plays straight into that; although the weaknesses match, you're left with hoping the other guy doesn't predict your Breloom coming in. Although it's great at staying once it's *in* thanks to Poison Heal, Leech Seed, and Subbing, it's actual defenses aren't great, and the turn of the switch in is risky.


That doesn't just apply to Breloom, people can predict anything coming in, including Vaporeon. Breloom's actually pretty good at reducing the whole prediction thing, as like I said, he has Pokemon that he's a very reliable switch into (Swampert and Ttar being a couple of the best examples, ironically Vaporeon itself isn't far behind) and he carries sub, a move which naturally eases prediction by allowing you to scout the opponent's next move/switch.

Quote:
 
Incidentally, Flying attacks aren't all that uncommon, with Togekiss and Skarmory always packing STAB, and things like Roserade commonly pack Sludge Bomb.


Skarm uses brave bird/drill peck as a last resort, 95% of the time it's roosting, spiking or WWing. It's actually pretty safe to switch Breloom into Skarm cause you outspeed him (and thus can spore before he kills you) and he's not going to actually use his hilariously weak offense against anything else on the team.

Togekiss and Roserade, sure. What else in OU commonly packs and uses Flying/Poison moves? 1 pokemon out of ~50 (especially when they're not even in the top 25, Roserade's not even in the top 40) is exactly what I said: lol, nothing uses these in OU. Even if you run into them, the team has 3 poison/psychic resists and 2 flying resists, so whatevs.

While we're on the subject, I wonder how many OU pokemon carry grass moves? There's 3 grass types in OU, and unlike flying/poison, some things actually use grass as a hidden power type (Heatran being a notable example) or carry grass moves even when it's non-STAB just for coverage (Infernape being a good example here).

Quote:
 
Granted, Vaporeon's weaknesses are worse, but here's the rub: unlike Breloom, it doesn't rely on typing to survive. Its special defense is more than sufficient to wall, and although its defense is lackluster, Vaporeon's high HP and EV's can add a lot of physical durability. For Breloom, a bad switch (or even a switch into a neutral attack) can mean instant death or impending death; for Vaporeon, a bad switch isn't necessarily irrecoverable.


Sure, Vaporeon can wall some things, but the things that it walls generally aren't a problem anyways. Remember how we've already got fire and ice covered really well? Then there's water types, which Breloom resists too with lesser defenses, but the thing about water types is Vaporeon can't do anything back to them. Gyarados or CM Suicune can switch into Vaporeon with pretty much nothing to fear and set up in its face. Breloom? Not so much, as they will get subseeded, eat a falcon punch/stone edge, or just be put to sleep.

What else, special attackers? OU's most common special attackers are Heatran, Gengar, Starmie and Rotom. Again, Heatran is already covered. Vaporeon's better off than Breloom when it comes to Gengar I guess, but you shouldn't be switching either one into him, you should be going to your scarf Ttar and using pursuit. If you have to go up against Gengar, roughly half carry tbolt, but only about a quarter carry HP fire. There's Starmie, but in June, 85% of them carry tbolt while 67% carry ice beam, so neither pokemon will enjoy going up against him and Breloom has better odds if you have to do it (especially since Breloom can actually hurt it). Then there's Rotom who has electric STAB so lol. Vaporeon's special walling capacities aren't impressing me, 3 of the top 4 special threats are regularly carrying tbolt and the other one is extremely well-covered by the team already.

Quote:
 
I agree that momentum is important, but it's not paramount to the point that you want to maintain it at all costs. When you're playing with a team like that, every match is on a knife point. Vaporeon provides some much needed stability; it's a good all around Pokemon, and unlike Breloom, its counters and checks mostly revolve around setting up on it or outstalling it.


Not true. When someone brings a specs Jolteon in on Vaporeon, there will be no setting up and no stalling, and in all likelihood something on your team is going to die. Also, why do you say "setting up on it" like that's acceptable? I should also mention that "outstalling" Vaporeon isn't difficult either, as all that's needed is a simple toxic to cripple its ability to wall anything, and anything can carry that move. Of course, Breloom's vulnerable to toxic too--oh wait.

Quote:
 
Well, there's no need to worry about the stall game, since this team will either completely fail against stall or blow it wide open. Yawn helps check both stall Pokemon and set-up sweepers; although it neuters Vaporeon's abilities offensively, that's okay, because Vaporeon's offensive is pretty much irrelevant here. Granted, Yawn is no Spore, but it's a decent option, and it does have a minor advantage in that you can continuously use it to check things without having it rendered useless for the rest of the match.


Yawn makes you a crappy version of Breloom. They get put to sleep, after a chance to hit you, and they have a chance to switch out and dodge the sleep if they want to, which means there's plenty of options for getting around it. The other guy can bring in a sleep absorber like Celebi/Blissey or a rest talker, he can go to Scizor and just spam U-turn at you, or he could even bring in his own Breloom and get a completely free switch because Breloom is immune to yawn. And you're right in saying that it makes Vaporeon's offense total balls. Now it's set up bait for both Gyarados and Salamence; you can have fun yawning one of them and then getting swept by the other, since they're both in the top 5, they're commonly used on the same team. And even when they're not, being set up bait for more stuff increases the chance that the other guy will have something that can set up on you after you've slept one of his other pokemon.
Edited by CATZ, Jul 16 2010, 06:39:28 AM.
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Lukannon
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It seems I forgot you're supposed to think before you start debating, hahaha! Ah well.

I'll make a proper response tomorrow, I tried to formulate an argument but failed at coherence (in my defense it is late) but just a minor thing:

Quote:
 
While we're on the subject, I wonder how many OU pokemon carry grass moves? There's 3 grass types in OU, and unlike flying/poison, some things actually use grass as a hidden power type (Heatran being a notable example) or carry grass moves even when it's non-STAB just for coverage (Infernape being a good example here).


CATZ
 
Grass--3 double-resists here, so it's pretty well covered.

Yuuno-anon
 
As ripped as your roids and rage make you, they cannot UNFATTEN YOUR SPIRIT.
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CATZ
oh u

Oh, for sure. Remember where that tangent started and why I said "While we're on the subject." You decided to point out things that use Flying and Poison in OU, when I had already said that the team has both of those types covered; so when I started that passage with "While we're on the subject," I meant while we're on the subject of things our Pokemon are weak to but the team has covered anyways, which for Vaporeon, would be grass moves.
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Lukannon
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Is this tomorrow

I think this is the day after tomorrow, my bad. Anyway...in case it hasn't already been obvious, I'm arguing a lost cause here. Just to clarify. Arguing for argument's sake is fun though, so let's get on with it:

Quote:
 
That doesn't just apply to Breloom, people can predict anything coming in, including Vaporeon. Breloom's actually pretty good at reducing the whole prediction thing, as like I said, he has Pokemon that he's a very reliable switch into (Swampert and Ttar being a couple of the best examples, ironically Vaporeon itself isn't far behind) and he carries sub, a move which naturally eases prediction by allowing you to scout the opponent's next move/switch.


Lukannon
 
Although it's great at staying once it's *in* thanks to Poison Heal, Leech Seed, and Subbing, it's actual defenses aren't great, and the turn of the switch in is risky.


It's true that Breloom has some reliable switches, but the same can be said of the vast majority of Pokemon, including Vaporeon (opposing Vaporeon, Empoleon, Infernape, blahblah). The point isn't that Breloom can't ever switch in, it's that Vaporeon doesn't rely on absolutely safe switch-ins to get in...as I said earlier. Granted, there are still plenty of things Vaporeon doesn't want to come in on, but it's less dependent on perfect matchups for a switch.

Quote:
 
Skarm uses brave bird/drill peck as a last resort, 95% of the time it's roosting, spiking or WWing. It's actually pretty safe to switch Breloom into Skarm cause you outspeed him (and thus can spore before he kills you) and he's not going to actually use his hilariously weak offense against anything else on the team.

Togekiss and Roserade, sure. What else in OU commonly packs and uses Flying/Poison moves? 1 pokemon out of ~50 (especially when they're not even in the top 25, Roserade's not even in the top 40) is exactly what I said: lol, nothing uses these in OU. Even if you run into them, the team has 3 poison/psychic resists and 2 flying resists, so whatevs.


Okay, that's true.

Quote:
 
Not true. When someone brings a specs Jolteon in on Vaporeon, there will be no setting up and no stalling, and in all likelihood something on your team is going to die. Also, why do you say "setting up on it" like that's acceptable? I should also mention that "outstalling" Vaporeon isn't difficult either, as all that's needed is a simple toxic to cripple its ability to wall anything, and anything can carry that move. Of course, Breloom's vulnerable to toxic too--oh wait.


Okay, that's all true.

Quote:
 
Yawn makes you a crappy version of Breloom. They get put to sleep, after a chance to hit you, and they have a chance to switch out and dodge the sleep if they want to, which means there's plenty of options for getting around it. The other guy can bring in a sleep absorber like Celebi/Blissey or a rest talker, he can go to Scizor and just spam U-turn at you, or he could even bring in his own Breloom and get a completely free switch because Breloom is immune to yawn. And you're right in saying that it makes Vaporeon's offense total balls. Now it's set up bait for both Gyarados and Salamence; you can have fun yawning one of them and then getting swept by the other, since they're both in the top 5, they're commonly used on the same team. And even when they're not, being set up bait for more stuff increases the chance that the other guy will have something that can set up on you after you've slept one of his other pokemon.


Everything you've mentioned here aside from Scizor and the setup is just as applicable to Breloom. However, you're wrong about Gyarados and Salamence.

First turn:

Vaporeon uses Yawn, Gyarados uses Dragon Dance/random attack.

Second turn:

Vaporeon uses Protect, Gyarados either switches out to Salamence or uses a random attack or falls asleep. Either way, Vaporeon doesn't care.

Third turn:

If Gyarados switched out to Salamence, Vaporeon uses Yawn again while Salamence attacks or DD's. If Gyarados fell asleep, you have a fresh switch against Salamence.

Fourth turn:

Vaporeon uses Protect, Salamence either switches out or does something futile. (note that I'm aware you could predict the second Protect and do something else or do x thing or y thing or whatevs but that's beside the point) Alternatively, whatever Pokemon you switched in does something idk what. Note that without Stone Edge, Breloom can't stop Salamence from coming in, and it also takes a huge hit to its ability to actually do anything after being hit with two Intimidates. With Stone Edge, Breloom is either dropping Seed Bomb or Sub, both of which are pretty big losses in the context of this team.

The purpose of Yawn isn't necessarily to actually put something to sleep, but to keep them from staying in for too many turns. Yawn's a horrible sleep move. It doesn't guarantee sleep, it doesn't guarantee you a switch, it's pretty pointless except in one regard: one way or another, the opponent is going to have to switch out. Taken in conjunction with Protect and Wish, Yawn is surprisingly useful. If your opponent chooses to take the sleep hit, okay, that's nothing over Spore. On the other hand, if he switches, you can keep forcing him out.

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Sure, Vaporeon can wall some things, but the things that it walls generally aren't a problem anyways. Remember how we've already got fire and ice covered really well? Then there's water types, which Breloom resists too with lesser defenses, but the thing....Rotom who has electric STAB so lol. Vaporeon's special walling capacities aren't impressing me, 3 of the top 4 special threats are regularly carrying tbolt and the other one is extremely well-covered by the team already.


I think you're misreading the point, and rereading my posts, it's obvious why that is.

Vaporeon isn't meant to wall or stall, except when absolutely necessary. It's there for two reasons: Wish support and scouting. The former's value is obvious: it helps keep your other Pokemon fresh, particularly Salamence and Gyarados since they're likely to be the key to your victory. The latter is more important; Yawn, Protect, and Vaporeon's overall durability are meant to let Vaporeon get in and force something out so you can get a better switch. Vaporeon's not ever supposed to stay in for very long, it's still an offensive team. It gets in when it needs to be in, does what it does, and moves out of the way so you have a fresh chance at offense. Breloom can do the same thing with Spore? Sure, but only once; after that, you can't count on it to open up holes. Vaporeon's a pivot Pokemon; you switch to it as a general answer to whatevs, and you figure out what to do from there. Breloom has to be played a lot more delicately.

Incidentally, while you remarked on Specs Jolteon's ability to beat this team with Vaporeon on it, Infernape hits it just as hard without Vaporeon.

Should I even bother continuing...next time I will make sure to actually think about it instead of just going with whatevers








Yuuno-anon
 
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CATZ
oh u

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I think this is the day after tomorrow, my bad. Anyway...in case it hasn't already been obvious, I'm arguing a lost cause here. Just to clarify.


meh

We could try again with UU, if you want. Although this works too, of course.

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It's true that Breloom has some reliable switches, but the same can be said of the vast majority of Pokemon, including Vaporeon (opposing Vaporeon, Empoleon, Infernape, blahblah). The point isn't that Breloom can't ever switch in, it's that Vaporeon doesn't rely on absolutely safe switch-ins to get in...as I said earlier. Granted, there are still plenty of things Vaporeon doesn't want to come in on, but it's less dependent on perfect matchups for a switch.


It's less dependent on perfect matchups because it doesn't have as many. I don't know how you managed to turn that into an advantage for Vaporeon. Infernape isn't a safe switch; it's too versatile for almost anything to be a safe switch for it. Vaporeon won't enjoy switching into CC and nothing likes switching into U-turn. If you want to safely switch into Infernape, the team already has Gyarados, who is probably the best you're gonna get.

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Everything you've mentioned here aside from Scizor and the setup is just as applicable to Breloom.


So in other words, a small fraction of that paragraph? I'll repost and bold the stuff that isn't about Scizor or things setting up on Vaporeon.

Yawn makes you a crappy version of Breloom. They get put to sleep, after a chance to hit you, and they have a chance to switch out and dodge the sleep if they want to, which means there's plenty of options for getting around it. The other guy can bring in a sleep absorber like Celebi/Blissey or a rest talker, he can go to Scizor and just spam U-turn at you, or he could even bring in his own Breloom and get a completely free switch because Breloom is immune to yawn. And you're right in saying that it makes Vaporeon's offense total balls. Now it's set up bait for both Gyarados and Salamence; you can have fun yawning one of them and then getting swept by the other, since they're both in the top 5, they're commonly used on the same team. And even when they're not, being set up bait for more stuff increases the chance that the other guy will have something that can set up on you after you've slept one of his other pokemon.

1. Sleep absorbers--The difference here is that the other guy has two chances to switch one of these in against Vaporeon, and only one against Breloom. The other difference is that Breloom actually has offense and is much better at punishing the other guy for bringing in sleep absorbers. Blissey, for example? lol, no one is going to switch that in on something with STAB falcon punch. Rest talk Gyarados? Breloom can pack stone edge off of 130 base attack. etc.

2. The difference against enemy Breloom is that they're not immune to spore. Breloom needs at least one turn for toxic orb to activate before he becomes immune to status. With yawn, he's guaranteed to have that turn because yawn takes two turns to work. If he switches into spore before toxic orb has activated, though, it's lights out. If his orb has already activated, it means you've seen him already, and you're entirely capable of predicting the switch and killing him with falcon punch. Against Vaporeon, on the other hand, he still gets to come in and set up completely for free, no matter what you do.

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First turn:

Vaporeon uses Yawn, Gyarados uses Dragon Dance/random attack.

Second turn:

Vaporeon uses Protect, Gyarados either switches out to Salamence or uses a random attack or falls asleep. Either way, Vaporeon doesn't care.

Third turn:

If Gyarados switched out to Salamence, Vaporeon uses Yawn again while Salamence attacks or DD's. If Gyarados fell asleep, you have a fresh switch against Salamence.

Fourth turn:

Vaporeon uses Protect, Salamence either switches out or does something futile. (note that I'm aware you could predict the second Protect and do something else or do x thing or y thing or whatevs but that's beside the point) Alternatively, whatever Pokemon you switched in does something idk what.


In the short term, this might happen (it might not, you're depending on a lot of variables here, as the guy may just keep Gyarados in and hope it wakes up, switch to something that isn't Salamence, etc). But that's really not important. Here's what you should really be scared of:

First turn:

Vaporeon uses yawn, Gyarados does w/e.

Second turn:

Gyarados goes to sleep.

The battle proceeds, more stuff happens.

Later in the battle:

Salamence appears, oh noes, one of their pokemon is already asleep, yawn won't do anything. Salamence dragon dances for free, then OHKOs something with outrage while the other guy laughs behind his computer screen.

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Note that without Stone Edge, Breloom can't stop Salamence from coming in, and it also takes a huge hit to its ability to actually do anything after being hit with two Intimidates. With Stone Edge, Breloom is either dropping Seed Bomb or Sub, both of which are pretty big losses in the context of this team.


Yes, that's why you run stone edge. What's the big loss from not using seed bomb? You can't ohko Swampert anymore? Oh noez, he's such a threat to Breloom.

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The purpose of Yawn isn't necessarily to actually put something to sleep, but to keep them from staying in for too many turns. Yawn's a horrible sleep move. It doesn't guarantee sleep, it doesn't guarantee you a switch, it's pretty pointless except in one regard: one way or another, the opponent is going to have to switch out. Taken in conjunction with Protect and Wish, Yawn is surprisingly useful. If your opponent chooses to take the sleep hit, okay, that's nothing over Spore. On the other hand, if he switches, you can keep forcing him out.


No, he doesn't have to switch every time you use it. He can choose one of his pokemon to get hit by it, then it's useless and things can set up on you. It doesn't even have to be Gyarados or Salamence; a smart player will see yawn, then just go to something that he thinks won't be as useful or as likely to sweep next time you try to use it, allow that pokemon to fall asleep, and then wait for a chance to get Gyara/Mence in on Vaporeon. That's assuming that he doesn't have any of the multiple ways around the move that I mentioned above, of course, which is still a lot of assumptions to make.

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Vaporeon isn't meant to wall or stall, except when absolutely necessary. It's there for two reasons: Wish support and scouting. The former's value is obvious: it helps keep your other Pokemon fresh, particularly Salamence and Gyarados since they're likely to be the key to your victory.


Well, this was addressed already, so w/e.

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The latter is more important; Yawn, Protect, and Vaporeon's overall durability are meant to let Vaporeon get in and force something out so you can get a better switch.


You think Breloom doesn't force things out, or that you can't see what the other guy switches in after Breloom has forced something out?

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Vaporeon's not ever supposed to stay in for very long, it's still an offensive team. It gets in when it needs to be in, does what it does, and moves out of the way so you have a fresh chance at offense. Breloom can do the same thing with Spore? Sure, but only once; after that, you can't count on it to open up holes. Vaporeon's a pivot Pokemon; you switch to it as a general answer to whatevs, and you figure out what to do from there. Breloom has to be played a lot more delicately.


You act like Breloom rolls over and dies after he uses spore. Looks like you forgot about the part where he proceeds to start firing off 225 BP falcon punches from his 130 base attack stat, or maybe that just doesn't count as "opening up holes" in your book?

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Incidentally, while you remarked on Specs Jolteon's ability to beat this team with Vaporeon on it, Infernape hits it just as hard without Vaporeon.


No it doesn't, not even close. For starters, ScarfTar outspeeds Infernape, while it gets outsped by Jolteon. That's a huge difference right there, as it means you have twice as many offensive checks against Infernape as you have against Jolteon. Second, LO recoil and defense drops from CC makes it much, much easier for Scizor to kill Infernape with bullet punch. Third, you have pokemon that can switch into Infernape's attacks, you have both fire and fighting resists. It's possible to switch into him and force him out without losing a pokemon; it requires prediction, but it can be done. If you're running Vaporeon against a specs Jolteon, you can't outpredict the other guy because you don't have anything to work with, nothing on the team resists Electric. Finally, did you just forget about Gyarados or something? Less than 1/5 of Infernape run stone edge, most of the time Gyarados is going to stop it dead in its tracks, and even when it runs stone edge, you still have a 1/5 chance of the attack missing.
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Lukannon
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Yar, I'mma go ahead and throw in the towel. Grasping at straws and BSing isn't as fun as I thought it would be. Sorry I couldn't provide a bit more fun this time around, I'll prepare a bit more seriously next time.

There is one thing that I would like to address though:

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Finally, did you just forget about Gyarados or something? Less than 1/5 of Infernape run stone edge, most of the time Gyarados is going to stop it dead in its tracks, and even when it runs stone edge, you still have a 1/5 chance of the attack missing.

After Stealth Rock(and it WILL be up, as I've mentioned), Infernape 2HKOs Gyarados with an unboosted Fire Blast, and OHKO's if it Nasty Plotted prior to that (lol@your fire resist). Without any defensive investment (as our Gyarados is), Gyarados also has to watch out for Grass Knot. Stone Edge isn't Infernape's only answer to Gyarados, and although 2HKO against Gyarados might not seem a big deal, keep in mind that you'll be switching Gyarados into Infernape, not the other way around. (revenge killing? switch out, alternatively Infernape has already set up and it doesn't even matter) Salamence is in the same boat, with less special defense than Gyarados and a bare point more defense.

Scarftar is also not reliable against Infernape; Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave threaten it despite outspeeding, and I'm pretty sure it's an OHKO after Swords Dance/Nasty Plot. The Scizor point is valid, but Infernape is only ever going to use Close Combat against Tyranitar/Heatran. With Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave, it won't need CC and your revenge killing scheme is rather iffy. While we're on the subject of revenge killing, although Specs Jolteon tears a big hole into anything in the team (other than the hypothetical Breloom), Heatran is never OHKOd by Timid Specs Jolteon's Thunderbolt even after Stealth Rock, and Tyranitar has only a slight chance of being 2HKO'd factoring in the Sandstream boost, and both of them carry moves that OHKO back. As for Vaporeon's taking on Infernape...Grass Knot does nothing and Fire Blast does nothing. Admittedly, Vaporeon does take about half damage from an unboosted Life Orb Close Combat (assuming maximum attack investment) and is OHKOd after a Swords Dance, but it takes a maximum of 42% from any 64 attack EV set (which is quite a lot of them). You'd have to check the usage stats to compare the results, I guess.

Note that Specs Jolteon actually 2HKOs Breloom assuming 252/0 EV's for Breloom. Since Breloom needs one turn before Poison Heal can start doing its job, it's not a super reliable stop either. Again, this assumes I didn't somehow screw up the calcs, which I may very well have done.

Incidentally, where are you getting the usage stats from?
Edited by Lukannon, Jul 18 2010, 06:41:49 AM.
Yuuno-anon
 
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CATZ
oh u

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Yar, I'mma go ahead and throw in the towel. Grasping at straws and BSing isn't as fun as I thought it would be. Sorry I couldn't provide a bit more fun this time around, I'll prepare a bit more seriously next time.


Yeah, a UU debaet might be more interesting. Or hell, another OU; the team would look different, cause Salamence just got b7.

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After Stealth Rock(and it WILL be up, as I've mentioned), Infernape 2HKOs Gyarados with an unboosted Fire Blast, and OHKO's if it Nasty Plotted prior to that (lol@your fire resist).


Where/how are you obtaining these calculations? Smogon's calculator is showing me 32.9--39% for specially based Ape FB vs a Gyara with straight 0's in its EVs. After accounting for leftovers recovery, this never 2HKOs. Gyarados even has a chance to survive fire blast + grass knot + stealth rock. That's also assuming FB hits, that the Infernape is max SpA with a +nature (slightly less than half qualify for this), that you switch into fire blast (which isn't too likely given that 3 team members resist it), and that SR is up (WILL be up? No, it will often be up; but not always, and when you factor that in, all these assumptions start to really add up). Oh, and not even all of the special Infernape carry grass knot. ~46% run max SpA but only ~33% use grass knot. Hell, only about a third even use fire blast, flamethrower + overheat together are more common.

Know how many Jolteon run your problem move on that side of the fence, tbolt?

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Scarftar is also not reliable against Infernape; Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave threaten it despite outspeeding, and I'm pretty sure it's an OHKO after Swords Dance/Nasty Plot.


Those moves are at the bottom of Infernape's usage stats; 16.4% and 11.7% respectively. Even if he's packing those, then he's losing something else for them; HP ice, stone edge, grass knot, etc. Something that will make it easier for either Salamence or Gyarados to check instead.

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The Scizor point is valid, but Infernape is only ever going to use Close Combat against Tyranitar/Heatran.


It'll often be using it against Breloom, ironically. Still ohkos and doesn't have fire blast/overheat's accuracy problems. That's "only" half your team that he'll be busting it out for.

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With Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave, it won't need CC and your revenge killing scheme is rather iffy. While we're on the subject of revenge killing, although Specs Jolteon tears a big hole into anything in the team (other than the hypothetical Breloom), Heatran is never OHKOd by Timid Specs Jolteon's Thunderbolt even after Stealth Rock, and Tyranitar has only a slight chance of being 2HKO'd factoring in the Sandstream boost, and both of them carry moves that OHKO back.


Yeah, you can switch Heatran in once, and after that you have to sacrifice a pokemon every time that Jolteon gets in and gets a chance to attack. You can try Tyranitar, but I'm getting 40.4--47.7% for tbolt on him, which is 80.8--95.4% on two attacks. So if SR's up, you're basically flipping a coin. Have fun with that, I guess. I think it's clear that Breloom's team is still much less worried about Infernape than Vaporeon's team is about Jolteon.

Quote:
 
Note that Specs Jolteon actually 2HKOs Breloom assuming 252/0 EV's for Breloom. Since Breloom needs one turn before Poison Heal can start doing its job, it's not a super reliable stop either. Again, this assumes I didn't somehow screw up the calcs, which I may very well have done.


I won't disagree with you here, but the thing is, Breloom's not OHKO'd by tbolt like Vaporeon is, so his team is still better off.

Quote:
 
Incidentally, where are you getting the usage stats from?


http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74730

Posted every month in the Stark Mountain forum.
Edited by CATZ, Jul 18 2010, 07:29:01 AM.
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Lukannon
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Alright, point taken.

Thanks for the link, that will help immensely.
Yuuno-anon
 
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Fishin4pigeon
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man i was awesome at pokemon back in the day

i think the last time i played was a little ways after shaymin s was kicked out for the first time though
[size=2]Shadow [/size]of the Emblem. Srsly.

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Today in school we were watching a movie about risk and alcohol and drugs. On of the things was gross and i fainted.

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Great. Now your trainer has to go all the way back to the Pokemon Center. Do you know when he saved last? I sure hope you're happy.
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CATZ
oh u

like a year ago iirc

the thing about pokemanz these days is you have to know the metagame to really be good at it, so if you stop for a couple months, bam, it's almost like starting from scratch when you pick it up again
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I like this card and how it relates to me :3
http://serebii.net/card/secretwonders/049.shtml
Now, how bout that hug?
*hugs the person above this post*
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feraligatr looks badass
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