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Oriental; Question
Topic Started: Jun 20 2008, 02:36:39 AM (1,004 Views)
Wight
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Robin Goodfellow

Is this term offensive? Particularly asking Asians out there.

I think its ridiculous that such a word can suddenly become offensive when it wasn't ten years ago. I used the phrase, "Oriental peoples" in my Anthropology class on a paper and had points taken off for 'using a racial slur' (a lot of points). Speaking with the teacher after class, I told her specifically that I had never had a problem with anybody using the term Oriental in reference to people of my origin (since it more or less means Eastern) and I don't understand any connotations of how it can be negative. For instance, nigger and negro, of course, come from the Spanish word for black 'black' which has connotations of being dark and evil and stuff. I don't see how 'Eastern' could have any negative connotations. Then, of course, she took off even more points.

I bring this up only because I told this story to my older brother today.

In general, I think political correctness is retarded. That politicians can get in trouble for certain words which have nonsensical 'negative' connotations and can only use words that mean exactly the same thing but 'nicer' . . . Words are words. Swear words, to me, have always made no sense. Why are some words 'bad' if they don't mean anything? I refrain from using them out of politeness, but why? Words mean what we want them to mean, and I believe they're only offensive if they're used specifically to offend. For instance, 'nappy-headed whore' is obviously meant to offend. But that a classmate in elementary school was disciplined for saying 'pissed off' rather than 'made me mad' and that being called swearing . . . Makes no sense to me.
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Whale


I basically agree with everything you said, that was really unfair... I'm chinese and I'm not at all offended by "oriental"... Then again, I don't get offended at very much. >_>

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Pump Noodle
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So, one time I got in trouble with a teacher for saying black. Yeah. She was like "The proper term is african" and I was like wtf mate never heard that. They let it go. Of course, she was obviously wrong, but I wasn't punished for it. I'd say your teacher is retarded. Also, incorrect?

Also, what's wrong with negro?
just saying.
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Wight
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Robin Goodfellow

It's not acceptable in America. I don't know about other countries. Neither is colored, apparently, which is news to me.
In the UK, Oriental is perfectly fine. That makes even less sense to me. Two countries that speak English and in one, Oriental is a horrible racial slur, and the other, used as commonly as 'Asian'.
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'Nigger' doesn't have negative connotations due to its origin, it has negative connotations because of its long history as a heavily offensive racial slur(the fact that it's derived from negro is irrelevant, more likely it just took on an insulting tone during the history of its usage and still maintains that in the modern-day). I've never heard of 'negro' having negative connotations.

That said, although I disagree with using anecdotal evidence to decide whether or not a word is a racial slur or not, I find it quite ridiculous that the teacher is taking points off for an Asian using a word that is supposedly an Asian racial slur and then taking more points off when an Asian gives his testimony that it's not offensive at all.

Personally, I don't think Oriental is an outright offensive term, but it's a heavily dated term and contains the historical stigma of a time when racial tensions were quite heavy, particularly times like the Opium Wars and the heavy Asian prejudice in the West Coast(did you know there were pogroms and organized Asian massacres that rivaled the blacks' situation in the East? The things you learn...). It's not outright offensive, so I can't understand where the teacher is coming from, but it's certainly not innocent.

As for the idea of words being only words and the meaning making it prejudicial or otherwise, I disagree. I used to think like that, because in the end a word is only a tool to symbolize meaning. But the fact that it IS a tool means that it does need a commonly agreed definition. This isn't like justice or human rights. There isn't any right or wrong except what is commonly accepted.

Look at it this way, words are used for communicating to people. Therefore, a word has to mean the same thing for one person as it does for another. What, then, should be accepted? Should we then assume no words are offensive as a default? No, because there are some words that have to have the burden of being 'politically incorrect' in order for us to have a more complete set of tools to communicate with. We can't say 'a word isn't offensive if it isn't meant to be' because a word carries stigma and that stigma is the only thing that matters to the other person.

Of course, there are external factors like tone and body language, but in the end a word is a word and it contains it's own meaning and connotation. To accept the meaning, but deny the connotation, is only denying the concept behind the word's existence. An offensive word is an offensive word, period.

To end, that's not to say that standards don't change. I'm sure you've noticed, but especially among the current generation, 'curse' words have had a lot of the negative stigma removed and are emerging quite rapidly in pop culture as a mainstream, acceptable term. But that doesn't mean you can ignore the old standard, or that you can say 'it'll be fine later anyway.' Because even if it's fine later, it's not fine now, so that's just how it is.

EDIT: Haha, are you saying Asians aren't considered colored? I don't know if that's what you meant, but I've certainly felt like that sometimes, like everyone thinks we don't face any sort of discrimination here <:3

Maya Angelou once wrote a short essay about racial justice that we had to read in school, and she said Martin Luther King Jr. fought not just for blacks, but also for the disadvantaged white, the Mexican, and the Native American.

Haha, so what about the Asians, Ms. Angelou?

And to clarify my stance on Oriental, I've never once encountered a situation where it was outright considered a racial slur. So, there you have it. As for differing standards in the UK and US...

Well, there's no standardization of the language, so I don't see how that's much of a problem.
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Phoenix_Kensai
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...Wait, since when was Oriental considered offensive? I have never heard of anyone considering the word offensive until now, and I've heard it used reasonably often. I even have a D&D book sitting in my room right now with "Oriental Adventures" right on the cover, and it can't be much more than a few years old.




Regardless, though, I agree with Lukannon that your teacher was being ridiculous about the whole thing.
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Quote:
 
Look at it this way, words are used for communicating to people. Therefore, a word has to mean the same thing for one person as it does for another. What, then, should be accepted? Should we then assume no words are offensive as a default? No, because there are some words that have to have the burden of being 'politically incorrect' in order for us to have a more complete set of tools to communicate with. We can't say 'a word isn't offensive if it isn't meant to be' because a word carries stigma and that stigma is the only thing that matters to the other person.


But why? Why do we even need words with the specific connotation of offensiveness? From what I can see, their only usage is for people to be insulting, and for people to be insulted by. They don't have any worth in our society because we're not allowed to say them. If no words were labeled 'offensive' just because, it seems to me as if a lot of misunderstandings could be averted. Some words are inherently offensive by meaning, of course, so those I do understand.

Quote:
 
An offensive word is an offensive word, period.


An offensive word is only an offensive word if people choose to be offended. I could type 'damn' and I'm pretty sure none of you would find it offensive in the least because you don't think there's anything wrong with it. Many people don't even consider it to be a swear word. But if I said 'damn' in front of my mom, I'd get in trouble. Why? For no reason other than that it's a 'bad word'. Again, I find no usage in the English language for having words explicitly made for offense.

Quote:
 
As for differing standards in the UK and US...

Well, there's no standardization of the language, so I don't see how that's much of a problem.


This contradicts what you say here. "Therefore, a word has to mean the same thing for one person as it does for another."

Quote:
 
it's a heavily dated term and contains the historical stigma of a time when racial tensions were quite heavy, particularly times like the Opium Wars and the heavy Asian prejudice in the West Coast


Not heavily dated over here in the East. I'd heard it used acceptably when I was a kid. I didn't know that, but, then again, no one knows any of that over here. When asked why it was offensive, my professor just said 'because it is' with no answer. And that, to me, is ridiculous.
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kyo
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I blame oversensitivity. >_>

IMO, I agree with Luk. 'Oriental' is a rather antiquated word that still has some stereotype and prejudice attached to it.

I'm more offended at the words 'Chink' or 'Jap' than 'Oriental'.
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But why? Why do we even need words with the specific connotation of offensiveness? From what I can see, their only usage is for people to be insulting, and for people to be insulted by. They don't have any worth in our society because we're not allowed to say them. If no words were labeled 'offensive' just because, it seems to me as if a lot of misunderstandings could be averted. Some words are inherently offensive by meaning, of course, so those I do understand.


As I said earlier, it's solely for the purpose of having a more complete set of tools for the use of communication. Of course one could argue that a lot of problems would be avoided without those words, but personally, I'd think that if you erased words like that, new ones would appear. Removing the tools won't remove the meaning, and so long as that's there, tools will arise anyway.

Quote:
 
An offensive word is only an offensive word if people choose to be offended. I could type 'damn' and I'm pretty sure none of you would find it offensive in the least because you don't think there's anything wrong with it. Many people don't even consider it to be a swear word. But if I said 'damn' in front of my mom, I'd get in trouble. Why? For no reason other than that it's a 'bad word'. Again, I find no usage in the English language for having words explicitly made for offense.


You're misunderstanding my meaning. What I meant wasn't that people will be universally offended, but that so long as that is the currently accepted standard, a 'bad' word is inherently bad rather than having offensiveness attached to it by the intent of the user.

Quote:
 
This contradicts what you say here. "Therefore, a word has to mean the same thing for one person as it does for another."


No, because you have to take into account things like dialect. Universal standardization across a language is not the point.

Quote:
 
Not heavily dated over here in the East. I'd heard it used acceptably when I was a kid. I didn't know that, but, then again, no one knows any of that over here. When asked why it was offensive, my professor just said 'because it is' with no answer. And that, to me, is ridiculous.


Yeah, that's pretty damn ridiculous.
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Hmm . . . So I guess you're just saying human nature needs bad words to say. And human nature also makes these bad words prohibited. So my conclusion is that human nature is retarded. >=(
Sorry. I've been trying to post more in the RPs so most of my time on this forum is going thataway. =O
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Yeah, sure, you can look at it that way :P

Put some effort into TLLF's RP's too please T__T Although it's not really your fault or anything
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There are no RPs going there . . . I don't think?
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Lukannon
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That's 'cuz they died 'cuz munky didn't post :x

Well, at least drop in every now and then and talk, it gets kinda lonely over there sometimes >__>
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Hmm . . . I do drop in every day; I just don't post. >_>
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Yeah I know :x
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The connotation of words matters more than the denotation of words when you're dealing with slurs. For example, with the word "nigger" is extremely offensive beacuse of the sub-human connotation associated with the word. It may just mean "black person", but it's got a nasty connotation to it.

"Oriental" never seemed offensive to me, as it doesn't make any assumptions about your upbringing except that one is of Asian descent. If I were asian, I think it'd be more offended at people calling me Chinese or Japanese by first instinct rather than take into account Korean, Vietnamese, Mongolian, etc.

The connotations of the word are more important.
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Lukannon
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Or, you know, what about 'Asian?'
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Point of information, Oriental doesn't mean Eastern or Eastern Asia. Look it up, it actually means Western Asia. That being said, it originated in Western Asia as a word to describe the region, and that's all the purpose it has. The purpose of the word is to describe people from Western Asia, who can be significantly different from people from Eastern Asia. It's use has just been changed over time.

I've never even considered the term remotely offensive. Apparently, looking it up it is considered a racial slur with negative connotation, but how or why, I really don't see.
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Wight
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Err. I'm not sure where you heard that Book, but Orient means East and Occident means West. Comes from the Latin for 'rising' and 'falling'.
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Lukannon
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It's actually true; the Middle East used to be the East instead of the Far East.

Hell, some of that usage still remains. 'Oriental' rugs refer to rugs from the Middle East.

Unless you're arguing Book's usage of 'Oriental means,' so anyway.
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Oh, yeah. I know what you're talking about now. Yeah, 'Oriental' just means 'East', but it expanded as Europeans discovered more of what 'East' was.
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I make up racial slurs as I go, and they don't make sense, you sääksis!

First person to tell me what that means wins nothing!
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Wight
Jun 20 2008, 11:59:53 PM
When asked why it was offensive, my professor just said 'because it is' with no answer. And that, to me, is ridiculous.

h8 adults that think they're right because they're older.

Agreed whole-heartedly with topic post, but as Luk already pointed out, there will always be "swear words" because not everyone is smart enough to figure out that a word is only a "swear word" if you think it is.

Personally, I disagree with any kind of attempt to restrict another person's language. The whole notion of "swear words" is phail as outlined already by Wight, and atleast partially goes against free speech aswell. The exception is when those words are used in a clearly malicious manner, which falls into slander or w/e.

I've never seen anyone get offended at the word Oriental either, btw. Where I live, the colored folk just call each other "niggerz" all the time anyway and it doesn't bother them, though some of them would get pissed if a white person used the term. How offensive something is just depends on the individual person.
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Freedom of speech is not the freedom to be an ass, it's the freedom not to have your ideas restricted.

Just liek when assholes argue that it's a free country so they can do what they want.
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Indeed. That's why I said the exception is when those words are used in a clearly malicious manner. If someone stubs their toe and mutters "Shit!", I don't think they should be judged for it.
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Oh, well sure.

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First I'll start with serious quoting:
Quote:
 
Point of information, Oriental doesn't mean Eastern or Eastern Asia. Look it up, it actually means Western Asia


I did look it up. Acording to the dictionary I'm holding (the Colins Pocket Reference English Dictionary, Canadian Edition) Orient means "East Asia". So we can put the western Asia idea into the trash. Unless you want to get another ditionary or philology journal. I'm willing to change my idea if there is sufficient proof.

Quote:
 
In the UK, Oriental is perfectly fine

I believe that's because the term "asian" in the UK means desi (Indian/Pakistani etc...)

Quote:
 
I even have a D&D book sitting in my room right now with "Oriental Adventures"

Clearly the book wanted to have an old timey title. As Wight has pointed out, Oriental can mean eastern so it just mean the story is based in the east of something.

Now for my own voice:
I dislike the term asian for just one race of people because asia is so big and has more than one race. Asia includes Sri Lanka, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, India; places where the locals don't fit the term "Asian". But the term Oriental isn't P.C. which is fine. I personly try not to be a dickhead so I won't use terms that are insulting. I use the term east asian. It is geographicaly correct and is uninsulting. Everybody Wins!

Now for some less serious banter
Quote:
 
I make up racial slurs as I go, and they don't make sense, you sääksis!

First person to tell me what that means wins nothing!

An racial slur for Finnish Women. Yay I won nothing!

Quote:
 
Freedom of speech is not the freedom to be an ass

Yes it is! Freedom is speach means unrescrited use of ass and asslike terms and diction. Big Brother can't tell me not to be as arsehole dag nab it!
[The sarcasmometer is off the charts!]
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An racial slur for Finnish Women. Yay I won nothing!


Eh, close enough!
It means osprey.
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Quote:
 
I dislike the term asian for just one race of people because asia is so big and has more than one race. Asia includes Sri Lanka, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, India; places where the locals don't fit the term "Asian". But the term Oriental isn't P.C. which is fine. I personly try not to be a dickhead so I won't use terms that are insulting. I use the term east asian. It is geographicaly correct and is uninsulting. Everybody Wins!


This is liek saying all East Asians are one race. Is that what you're claiming? But what about the Mongolians, which are definitely 'East' Asian, or the Ainu?

Using 'Asian' to refer only to East Asians in an exclusive manner is wrong, sure, but I don't have a problem with usage of it to refer to East Asians.
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You have a good point.
I'll have to figure out a new term...
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Lukannon
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It's not liek you need a new term, you know >__>
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Quote:
 
I did look it up. Acording to the dictionary I'm holding (the Colins Pocket Reference English Dictionary, Canadian Edition) Orient means "East Asia". So we can put the western Asia idea into the trash. Unless you want to get another ditionary or philology journal.  I'm willing to change my idea if there is sufficient proof. 


Did the dictionary say East Asia or the Eastern?

Because I'm too lazy to luck at a reliable source...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental

It is now more commonly used to describe Eastern Asia, that's true. The word is now associated with there, not Western Asia, so that's probably why the dictionaries have changed the definition. I am 100% positive that somewhere besides Wikipedia, I read about the origin of the word. Just need to find it. >_>
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Ey topic neey amar kono specific feelings nai, kinto ame eta bolte pare je johkon ak jon akta word ke thekbe baje koro, amar mone hoy je oi word asholey baje hoe jay. Akta udhoron ame dile, eta bolte pare: ame je akhon boltesi ey kohta gula Bangla te, tomra shobai boojteso na. Tomra mone korle je ame baje kohta boltesi, outa holo amar dosh. Amar kohta bolar ochiit tomra amar mind ey neey. Lok jon to shob ak na.
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...haaa?
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Quote:
 
Ey topic neey amar kono specific feelings nai, kinto ame eta bolte pare je johkon ak jon akta word ke thekbe baje koro, amar mone hoy je oi word asholey baje hoe jay. Akta udhoron ame dile, eta bolte pare: ame je akhon boltesi ey kohta gula Bangla te, tomra shobai boojteso na. Tomra mone korle je ame baje kohta boltesi, outa holo amar dosh. Amar kohta bolar ochiit tomra amar mind ey neey. Lok jon to shob ak na.

Just to be sure, what language is that? Bengali?
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Wo bu dong.
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Jun 25 2008, 02:36:06 PM
Quote:
 
Ey topic neey amar kono specific feelings nai, kinto ame eta bolte pare je johkon ak jon akta word ke thekbe baje koro, amar mone hoy je oi word asholey baje hoe jay. Akta udhoron ame dile, eta bolte pare: ame je akhon boltesi ey kohta gula Bangla te, tomra shobai boojteso na. Tomra mone korle je ame baje kohta boltesi, outa holo amar dosh. Amar kohta bolar ochiit tomra amar mind ey neey. Lok jon to shob ak na.

Just to be sure, what language is that? Bengali?

Bangla, not Bengali. But yea.
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Whale


Looks kinda like a Tagalog/Japanese cross or something. >_>

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Mad-cow-burger
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Just for kicks what did you say in Bangla, Super Saiyan SolidSense?
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Luneth
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My problem: referring to people as asian, when you know which part of asia they are from.

My solution: refer to east russians as asians, to confuse people.
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