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Jill vs everyone else; FE9 debaet
Topic Started: Jan 28 2007, 05:51:45 PM (507 Views)
Reikken
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TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 11:09 AM
wild reikken
Jan 28 2007, 03:34 AM
Her speed is almost the exact same as Oscar's. It's just that she starts on a low level and her other bases are so awesome that it seems low. Anyway, ch 13 and 14 have lots of enemies weighed down by their weapons, which works out nicely for Jill, and then in 12 and 13, no one can double the ravens anyway.

Zihark can double some of the ravens, I'm positive, and the laguzslayer works in his favor. And I think a few others can double them as well (I think Ike will be able too).

Of course, Jill still does very well in that chapter, the only problem she might have is her accuracy, which doesn't hurt too much.


Make a debaet topic for me to lose in?

The slowest ravens have 13 speed, but Ike doesn't get to 17 spd until lv 19-20. The laguzslayer has 12 wt, so once Zihark reaches 3-4 levels, he should be able to start doubling some of the ravens. But Jill beats Zihark everywhere else (everything except offense against fast enemeis), so whatever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDiJkhUMfw

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R2D2
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wild reikken
Jan 28 2007, 05:51 PM
TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 11:09 AM
wild reikken
Jan 28 2007, 03:34 AM
Her speed is almost the exact same as Oscar's. It's just that she starts on a low level and her other bases are so awesome that it seems low. Anyway, ch 13 and 14 have lots of enemies weighed down by their weapons, which works out nicely for Jill, and then in 12 and 13, no one can double the ravens anyway.

Zihark can double some of the ravens, I'm positive, and the laguzslayer works in his favor. And I think a few others can double them as well (I think Ike will be able too).

Of course, Jill still does very well in that chapter, the only problem she might have is her accuracy, which doesn't hurt too much.


Make a debaet topic for me to lose in?

The slowest ravens have 13 speed, but Ike doesn't get to 17 spd until lv 19-20. The laguzslayer has 12 wt, so once Zihark reaches 3-4 levels, he should be able to start doubling some of the ravens. But Jill beats Zihark everywhere else (everything except offense against fast enemeis), so whatever.

My Ike is usually level 19 by the time I get to chapter 12, so that explains it. Zihark was around level 13 then too, so yeah.

But to clarify what I defend, I just don't think Jill can beat Kieran. She's better than everyone else.

*looks for Kieran's and Jill's stats*

Found them.


Kieran
Level 12 HP 30 Str 11 Mag 1 Skl 10 Spd 12 Luck 8 Def 10 Res 1
Growth: HP 60% Str 50% Mag 15% Skl 50% Spd 40% Luck 25% Def 40% Res 30%
Promotion bonuses: HP +3 Str +2 Mag +2 Skl +2 Spd +2 Def +2 Res +3

Average Stats at 20/0
HP 34.8 Str 15 Mag 2.5 Skl 14 Spd 15.2 Luck 10 Def 13.2 Res 3.4

Average Stats at 20/10
HP 43.2 Str 21.5 Mag 5.55 Skl 20.5 Spd 20.8 Luck 12.25 Def 18.8 Res 9.1

Average Stats at 20/20
HP 49.2 Str 26.5/26 Mag 7.05 Skl 25.5 Spd 24.8 Luck 14.75 Def 22.8 Res 12.1

Jill
Level 8 HP 24 Str 11 Mag 0 Skl 10 Spd 9 Luck 6 Def 11 Res 2
Growth: HP 60% Str 40% Mag 30% Skl 45% Spd 45% Luck 25% Def 35% Res 30%
Promotion bonuses: HP +5 Str +2 Mag +1 Skl +2 Spd +2 Def +2 Res +1

Average Stats at 20/0
HP 31.2 Str 15.8 Mag 3.6 Skl 15.4 Spd 14.4 Luck 9 Def 15 Res 5.6

Average Stats at 20/10
HP 41.6 Str 21.4 Mag 7.3 Skl 21.45 Spd 20.45 Luck 11.25 Def 20.35 Res 9.3

Average Stats at 20/20
HP 47.6 Str 25.4 Mag 10.3 Skl 25.95 Spd 24.95 Luck 13.75 Def 23.85 Res 10.3
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Sniper
Mm

Kieran and Oscar are better than Jill.

Jill is better than Ike.

I don't like using Reyson, but he's awesome.

Ike is overrated.
Farewell.
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Phoenix_Kensai
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Ike with Aether can practically solo the last few levels...
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R2D2
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So, Kieran will have a decent level lead until maybe chapter 16, cause Jill will slaughter the laguz in chapter 15, where she'll only be 1-2 levels behind, or even not behind at all. Kieran gets his Oscar support eventually, Jill gets her Mist support eventually. So in chapter 13...

Kieran will about 15/0, with these stats.

HP: 31.8 (+0.5 on fixed)
Str: 12.5 (+0.5 on fixed)
Mag: 1.45
Skl: 11.5
Spd: 13.2
Luck: 8.75 (+0.7 on fixed)
Def: 11.2 (+0.6 on fixed)
Res: 1.9

Jill will probably be 9/0 or 10/0. I'll compare at 10/0.

HP: 25.2 (+0.4 on fixed)
Str: 11.8 (+0.3 on fixed)
Mag: 0.6
Skl: 10.9
Spd: 9.9 (+0.5 on fixed)
Luck: 6.5 (+0.3 on fixed)
Def: 11.7
Res: 2.6

So Kieran has 6.6 HP (6.7 on fixed), 0.7 strength (0.9 on fixed), 0.85 magic (doesn't matter now anyways), 0.6 skill, 3.3 speed (2.8 on fixed), 2.25 luck (2.65 on fixed), and on fixed he has an insignificant 0.1 defense lead.

Jill has 0.5 defense on random and 0.7 resistance now, and flying, which does help a little, but not as much as in chapter 12 or 15, because you have a little more room now for ground untis. She's going to have a small amount higher hit rate because of lances, and Kieran has a higher attack gap due to the axes he has. Jill will have her Mist support negating Kieran luck lead basically and giving her a 1.5 defense lead (0.9 on fixed).

Since the crows do next to nothing in this chapter, flying doesn't help too much. And since Kieran's beating her offensively and has more or less equal defense with her, Kieran wins here.

Dang I took a long time to type this up...
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Sniper
Mm

We all know she starts slightly underlevelled.

We all know Kieran has a higher level. We all know.

We also know that Jill catches up very fast. Don't compare them to one chapter.

Quote:
 
Ike with Aether can practically solo the last few levels...

That's just neglecting your other units. Ike wins in the last two chapters of the game, but during the rest of the game, he isn't.
Farewell.
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R2D2
~(+|I|\/|I|+)~

I wasn't finished with my comparison...I'm kinda busy so I'm doing it in segments.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Sniper
Mm

We all know what happens with Jill and Kieran.

She's behind until chapter 16, then she catches up. That's all there is to it.
Farewell.
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R2D2
~(+|I|\/|I|+)~

Then she might be better than Kieran. Anyways...

Reikken, what's your site with enemy stats?
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Sniper
Mm

She's not better, because she has to take time to catch up when her stats are hardly better. Kieran also has superior supports.
Farewell.
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Phoenix_Kensai
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SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 02:29 PM
Quote:
 
Ike with Aether can practically solo the last few levels...

That's just neglecting your other units. Ike wins in the last two chapters of the game, but during the rest of the game, he isn't.

Actually, that's a good point... Ike does become one of the best units in the game, but that's not until near the end.
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R2D2
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SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 07:48 PM
She's not better, because she has to take time to catch up when her stats are hardly better. Kieran also has superior supports.

I'm supporting Kieran. But she's close for sure. And better than Oscar.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Sniper
Mm

Yeah, though Oscar is better when supported.

He gets 15 avoid from A Kieran, and 20 from B Ike.
Farewell.
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R2D2
~(+|I|\/|I|+)~

SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah, though Oscar is better when supported.

He gets 22 avoid from A Kieran, and 20 from B Ike.

Fixed. <_< Kieran has wind affinity.

But Jill's durability is really good anyways, and Jill's offense>Oscar's, so Jill>Oscar.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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rn7
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TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 11:39 AM
Then she might be better than Kieran. Anyways...

Reikken, what's your site with enemy stats?

http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9EnemyStats.php
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Sniper
Mm

TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 08:10 PM
SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah, though Oscar is better when supported.

He gets 22 avoid from A Kieran, and 20 from B Ike.

Fixed. <_< Kieran has wind affinity.

But Jill's durability is really good anyways, and Jill's offense>Oscar's, so Jill>Oscar.

Offense isn't everything, and Jill's defence is only one point higher.

Now, she wins in offense, but when supported Oscar is winning.

If offense was everything, Stefan would beat Zihark and Ike would beat Kieran and Oscar (his strength is higher, so he obviously has better offense!).

Just because her offense is better doesn't mean she's a better unit. Her supports aren't that great, while Oscar thrashes her in this with all his avoid supports.
Farewell.
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R2D2
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SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 08:32 PM
TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 08:10 PM
SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 08:00 PM
Yeah, though Oscar is better when supported.

He gets 22 avoid from A Kieran, and 20 from B Ike.

Fixed. <_< Kieran has wind affinity.

But Jill's durability is really good anyways, and Jill's offense>Oscar's, so Jill>Oscar.

Offense isn't everything, and Jill's defence is only one point higher.

Now, she wins in offense, but when supported Oscar is winning.

If offense was everything, Stefan would beat Zihark and Ike would beat Kieran and Oscar (his strength is higher, so he obviously has better offense!).

Just because her offense is better doesn't mean she's a better unit. Her supports aren't that great, while Oscar thrashes her in this with all his avoid supports.

Jill has the Mist support, which raises defense.

Offense isn't everything, but Oscar's avoid is overkill. Jill isn't ever in any trouble, hers is still pretty good. Since Jill has better offense, she wins.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Reikken
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TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 01:19 PM
Since the crows do next to nothing in this chapter, flying doesn't help too much. And since Kieran's beating her offensively and has more or less equal defense with her, Kieran wins here.

The ravens aren't the only reason flying is good. It's mainly the narrow bridges being the only way to cross, as well as the railings and stairs.



SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 02:00 PM
Yeah, though Oscar is better when supported.

He gets 15 avoid from A Kieran, and 20 from B Ike.

No...

Oscar will have a large avoid lead, but Jill has a def lead.

20/20 Oscar = 22.6 def + 0 from supports = 22.7
20/20 Jill = 23.8 def + 3-4 from supports = 26.8-27.8

When your defense is that high, you're not taking much damage...at all. 19 str paladin + steel lance = ~2 damage. 1 if you have WTA, which is often the case.

(ch 18)
20/3 Oscar = 16.6 def
20/2 Jill = 17.5 + 3 = 20.5 def
I'm assuming steel axe for both and using the low end of their def because using the higher end = better for Jill.

14 str general + steel lance = 3 damage to Jill, 7 to Oscar
11 str soldier/halberdier = 0 damage to Jill, 4 to Oscar
15 str fighter/warrior = 6 damage to Jill, 10 to Oscar




And Jill has better offense and mobility.




SNIPER
Jan 28 2007, 01:48 PM
She's not better, because she has to take time to catch up when her stats are hardly better. Kieran also has superior supports.

Kieran has less def than Oscar, and gets less avo from his supports.



Quote:
 
If offense was everything, Stefan would beat Zihark and Ike would beat Kieran and Oscar (his strength is higher, so he obviously has better offense!).

You're confusing str with offense for that last part...Kieran's weapons >> Ike's, so Kieran's offense is better.

And no, offense isn't everything. There's other things to take into account, like mobility, which Jill beats everyone in, except maybe Haar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDiJkhUMfw

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Sniper
Mm

Reikken, Oscar has the same access to weapons as Jill does.
Farewell.
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Reikken
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When did I ever imply otherwise?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDiJkhUMfw

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R2D2
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Jill has more strength anyways, IIRC. So a win for Jill.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Hab
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Lik evryones saying offence isn't everything. You need to be able to dodge to do better too.
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cjrocker577
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TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 29 2007, 01:02 AM
Jill has more strength anyways, IIRC. So a win for Jill.

than who?
rn7
 
thanks ceej, you're pretty alright
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R2D2
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Than Oscar.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Hab
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TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 28 2007, 09:14 PM
Than Oscar.

No. Just the Oscar A support with Ike alone gives him 30 avoid. Plus Kieran gives him some avoid too.
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R2D2
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I was talking about Jill's strength being higher than Oscar. But Jill has loads of defense anyways, she doing good in durability, and beating Oscar in offense, and has more mobility. And Jill has pwntastic bases, so Jill FtW.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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cjrocker577
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Major Lazer

haars better than jill
rn7
 
thanks ceej, you're pretty alright
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R2D2
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Haar<<<Jill. Late joining time and low speed FTL.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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James Cameron
Walter

Jill's Str lead is trivial(about 2 points after promotion), and I expect that Oscar's Avo is helping him considerably against enemy magic, by comparison to Jill atleast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
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R2D2
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Mages aren't that dangerous in this game in the slightest way.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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James Cameron
Walter

As Reikken himself has argued, mages are not common, but that doesn't mean the few you face aren't dangerous.

A durability win against magic isn't a big deal, no, but neither is a 2 Str lead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
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R2D2
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We would need to see the enemy stats to see how much 2 strength matters.

But if Oscar is better, cool. Him being there for a lot more chapters can be enough for the win. I'm just starting off with Kieran to make my debate easier.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Reikken
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2 str -> 3 atk with supports

I fail to see how a 3, or even a 2 atk lead is trivial. 3 atk is the difference between iron and steel.
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R2D2
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Oy yeah, it's 6 with doubling. I forgot that. 6 damage is significant. But Jill doesn't have this against Kieran, and Kieran has a lead in speed. Kieran has great defense (80-90 avoid during chapter 24-29, and 19-23 defense, definitely above average). He's easier to use (aside from 13 and 15), so all Jill has is flying. Definitely useful, but not quite enough to beat Kieran IMO.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Reikken
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Jill's doesn't have an offense lead on Kieran, but Kieran's defense is inferior to Oscar's, and Jill still has her mobility lead, which is awesome.

They both have awesome offense/defense, but Jill can be awesome in more places, so she wins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDiJkhUMfw

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R2D2
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Kieran has KW access. That should bump up his speed 1-3 points, and it gives him more defense and resistance. More offense and defense FTW.
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James Cameron
Walter

3 Atk isn't exactly impressive either.

As far as Jill's flying goes, yeah, that helps her beat Oscar. Personally I'd put Kieran over Jill, though.
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Reikken
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That is true, but it's not his alone. All your other paladins, soldiers, and knights want it, Devdan/Gatrie/Brom/Tauroneo especially. Even with it equipped, Jill's def is still better by ~3, though Kieran does have ~15-20 avo.

The only thing Kieran really has over Jill is speed insurance in random mode, while Jill has flying skillz in both modes, since her average speed is already fine enough, especially with the existence of bands.

At any rate, I'd put flying over that any day. There aren't many ways to increase speed, but there's no way at all to gain flying.


WJCm
Jan 28 2007, 11:00 PM
3 Atk isn't exactly impressive either.

Why not?



Also, I've heard that the KW's uber spd growth only works in fixed mode. I've never tested this since I usually play fixed.
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James Cameron
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Flying is subjective. I've never found it to be anything special at all, myself.
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Reikken
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I don't see how it could be of no use. On outdoor maps, I make use of flying ability about every other turn, or more. I could give you a bunch of examples if need be. It should be pretty obvious for for chapters 15, 23, and 25 at least.
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R2D2
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wild reikken
Jan 29 2007, 05:09 AM
Also, I've heard that the KW's uber spd growth only works in fixed mode. I've never tested this since I usually play fixed.

If that's the case, my Gatrie must get a HELL of a lot of blessage, because when I give him the KW on random, he's ending up with 21-23 speed every time.

In other words, I'm pretty sure it works in random. LOL, Frog.

And I find flying useful myself, useful enough to beat Oscar, but not Kieran. The value of flying is present in 17, 19, 20, 21, 23, and 25. Maybe 28. Once you've taken care of Naesala, the flying isn't all that useful in chapter 19. Jill is also limited by sleep staves in 21, so she has a little bit of restriction there. But it's real useful still.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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Reikken
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TheRoadtoDawn
Jan 29 2007, 11:15 AM
And I find flying useful myself, useful enough to beat Oscar, but not Kieran.

What does Kieran have that beats it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDiJkhUMfw

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Whale


Uberness.

obligatory text <<
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R2D2
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Easier training at the beginning? Yeah. And better offense than Jill until the late chapters.
~TheRoadtoDawn~
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