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anti-bullying/self defense clarification; suspended for defending self?
Topic Started: Nov 13 2006, 08:45 PM (2,878 Views)
garfield
Principal
NFarquharson
Nov 18 2006, 02:22 PM
garfield
Nov 18 2006, 01:26 PM
The only people who know what happened to each kid in a situation is the administration and each indiv. child's family.

I completely disagree with you on that. Unless the administrator actually witnessed the entire incedent, which is unlikely, he/she has probably come to a conclusion about what happened by:

1) hearing it from a teacher or teachers that witnessed some or all of what happened it or

2) hearing from teachers that talked to the children involved or

3) talking to the children involved themselves

The children are most likely the ones that really know the whole story and it is not unusual for them to leave out important pieces of information when re-telling the story to an adult, whether that adult is a teacher, principal or a parent. You have to ask the right questions...many questions....and dig out the details to truely understand the dynamics, which is something that teachers on a playground who are trying to stop a fight are probably unlikely to be able to do. It is human nature to jump to conclusions based on what you see yourself, which is why the kid that hits back after being hit is sometimes the one that gets in trouble. Teachers, parents and prinipals sometimes don't get the whole story and can make mistakes in judgement. No one is immune from that.

You are correct in your post. People to have to question everyone. Over and over in order to get the whole story. That's a given, but...

that was not what I said.

I said that not everyone knows what happens to each child involved when it comes to discipline actions given to each child. This is confidential! It takes a bunch of questions and interviews to get at the root of a situation, but it does not take a bunch of people to know what everyone elses discipline action was.

You read the post completely wrong!
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loyaltolivonia
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Thank you Nancy and others! I am not lying or embellishing on this. I KNOW this child. He is at our house many times a week. I heard it.....

child<parent<me

If parents do not want to know what is going on in school, they should not come to this sight. EVERYTHING is discussed here and you know it! Do NOT try to make me look like a liar. I am not. I am reporting facts. I am a little scared for my child and if either of you have a child in a 5/6, you should be too!

I think an apology is in order, don't you think? Garfield? Livoniafootballmom?
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livoniafootballmom
Principal
loyaltolivonia
Nov 19 2006, 09:28 AM
Thank you Nancy and others! I am not lying or embellishing on this. I KNOW this child. He is at our house many times a week. I heard it.....

child<parent<me

If parents do not want to know what is going on in school, they should not come to this sight. EVERYTHING is discussed here and you know it! Do NOT try to make me look like a liar. I am not. I am reporting facts. I am a little scared for my child and if either of you have a child in a 5/6, you should be too!

I think an apology is in order, don't you think? Garfield? Livoniafootballmom?

I never said that you were a liar. I think that was even in my post, I said that I would reserve that terminology for other's on this forum to use. Since I don't know you, I could NEVER say that you were lying. That is something that should not be thrown around lightly. IMO. I am trying to caution others from taking what is here and repeating it, and embellishing it. I do also think that you have one side of the story. From the child that you know. You don't have the rest of the story, because you were not there. Nor was I, anything else is speculation. Let me sat this before I get accused of calling the child a liar, I don't believe that the child that told you this story is not telling the truth, he is telling you what he knows/believes happened. For example....many eyewitnesses to the same event will see things differently. I am not saying that he is wrong, or a liar, he is telling the story as he saw it. But it might not be the same as the way another person who was right there at the same time also saw it. I think that this is a reasonable statement.

Nancy, I believe you also left out a way that the principal would have gotten the story, child>teacher>principal would also become during the course of the investigation child>principal. They don't just take the teachers word for it, especially if the teacher was not right there when it happened. Additionally, the teacher would not know everything that led up to the event that caused the suspension(s).

I do not currently have a 5/6 grader and I am not saying that you should not be concerned. But let me say this, my kids went to an elementary north of schoolcraft and west of farmington and when my son was in the 2nd grade one student in his class was suspended for trying to light a fire in the boys bathroom trash can, and then in third grade a different student threatened to bring his dad's gun to school and shoot somebody that he happened to be mad at. Not rumor, fact, in the same way that LTL is getting her information. Bad behaviors have been happening for a long time.
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NFarquharson
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garfield
Nov 19 2006, 09:27 AM
You read the post completely wrong!

Your post could be taken a couple of ways, so I appologize if I interpreted it differently from what you intended.

"Rumors! Rumors! Rumors!

The only people who know what happened to each kid in a situation is the administration and each indiv. child's family.

It is an issue of confidentiality to discuss other student's behavior and consequences with anyone, but that child and their guardians."


"What happened" could mean either the actual events or the consequences and you mentioned both behavior and consequences in the next sentence after the one I quoted. I focused on the behavior but apparently you were focusing on consequences. Sorry about the confusion.
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ILIkeLI
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" Bad behaviors have been happening for a long time. "

We all agree with that statement but many kids are now being exposed to these behaviors much earlier as a result of been forced out of their neighborhood schools and put in very large/anonymous environments. Yes supporters, we hear your defense loud and clear "all of this has happened pre-LI and it's all normal"
Again, you are missing the point. These behavioral issues have increased dramatically post-LI. This forum is a valuable source of information for parents. LPS is certainly not going to let you know what is going on in those buildings.
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Mrs.M
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I don't know if so many parents are too busy:

with themselves,
their work,
wanting to be their child's friend,
walking around with blinders,
cleaning their rose-colored glasses...whatever the reason or excuse

Parents need to take on a parenting role, yes folks, probably one that used to exist 20 and 30 years ago. There is too much going on in this world for parents to not know and be informed of the good, the bad and the ugly that is going on in our society and particularly in our own community. Get involved in your child's life, care enough to want and demand the very best. Protect your child from negative influences, yet teach them how to handle them (and cope with them) when they are exposed, because unfortunately we can't keep our child in a bubble.



The name of the telephone game was called "operator". That was a fun game! What is going on in our schools is not FUN!
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livoniafootballmom
Principal
ILIkeLI
Nov 19 2006, 10:10 AM
" Bad behaviors have been happening for a long time. "

We all agree with that statement but many kids are now being exposed to these behaviors much earlier as a result of been forced out of their neighborhood schools and put in very large/anonymous environments. Yes supporters, we hear your defense loud and clear "all of this has happened pre-LI and it's all normal"
Again, you are missing the point. These behavioral issues have increased dramatically post-LI. This forum is a valuable source of information for parents. LPS is certainly not going to let you know what is going on in those buildings.

And they shouldn't be informing you of what's going on in other buildings with other peoples children. You know about things that happen in your building by being a part of that community which includes having a network of friends, some who volunteer in the schools who have more information just by the nature of being in the buildings on a more regular basis. The more things get talked about by more people, particularly those who do not have students in the building and don't know the people involved the more things get blown out of proportion, not intentionally but it happens.
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livoniafootballmom
Principal
Mrs.M
Nov 19 2006, 10:23 AM
I don't know if so many parents are too busy:

with themselves,
their work,
wanting to be their child's friend,
walking around with blinders,
cleaning their rose-colored glasses...whatever the reason or excuse

Parents need to take on a parenting role, yes folks, probably one that used to exist 20 and 30 years ago. There is too much going on in this world for parents to not know and be informed of the good, the bad and the ugly that is going on in our society and particularly in our own community. Get involved in your child's life, care enough to want and demand the very best. Protect your child from negative influences, yet teach them how to handle them (and cope with them) when they are exposed, because unfortunately we can't keep our child in a bubble.



The name of the telephone game was called "operator". That was a fun game! What is going on in our schools is not FUN!

I totally agree with you Mrs. M, but was afraid to say that for fear that I would be accused of saying that parents who post here are not being good parents. Our first responsibility to our children is to be their parent, which is not always a popular job, but it is the most important job we will ever have. Please don't attack me, I am not questioning anyone's parenting, just stating a truth that we live by in our household, We are first and foremost your parents, and will question everything that goes on and get answers to the questions we ask, or you as the child have no privileges to go to parties or out on dates or drive our car or anything else that is not directly related to getting good grades in school and growing up to be a mature, responsible adult.
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Mrs.M
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I want to know what is going on in areas within my community and yes in areas that our children could or would possibly frequent. Knowledge is power. We have kids who are dieing from overdoses in our community. Should we not be concerned or aware of these matters because "it wasn't from our high school"?

Guess what those high school kids went to the same grade school or middle school as our kids did.

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cmic
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Gee Garfield,
You had an opportunity to apologize to loyaltolivonia and try to see things from her point of view when instead you became exactly the opposite, defensive and all about you and that you are the victim because your post was read wrong. Which by the way, I read it like 3 times and I can't for the life of me figure out how you wanted RUMORS! (3X) to be taken. Please help me to understand because I too know LTL and she is not an exaggerator and is a very sensitive, bright, caring individual whom has been fair to everyone on this site. In addition, her priorities are her children and keeping them safe, not pleasing the BOE or stroking it's ego. She has already said they are happy at the new 5/6 school and she is glad yet... there are still things to fix and room for improvement. So, please, calm down, and take it easy. Your posts will be respected much more if you do. ;)
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ILIkeLI
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"And they shouldn't be informing you of what's going on in other buildings with other peoples children."

Parents have always talked and will continue to talk. This forum is just an extension of that. Please, we're all adults. We're used to taking in information, evaluating it for ourselves and going on from there.
I always find it suspect when certain groups or people attempt to close off communication by characterizing it as simply rumor or gossip. The truth will prevail.
Channels of communication have been opened wide by this forum and CFLF, there is no way they'll be closed now.
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livoniafootballmom
Principal
ILIkeLI
Nov 19 2006, 10:47 AM
"And they shouldn't be informing you of what's going on in other buildings with other peoples children."

Parents have always talked and will continue to talk. This forum is just an extension of that. Please, we're all adults. We're used to taking in information, evaluating it for ourselves and going on from there.
I always find it suspect when certain groups or people attempt to close off communication by characterizing it as simply rumor or gossip. The truth will prevail.
Channels of communication have been opened wide by this forum and CFLF, there is no way they'll be closed now.

Guess I should have made my "they" clearer. I was meaning that the district should not be informing you of disciplinary actions taken in other buildings with other children. Parents of course are always going to talk, as they should. It is one of the things that builds "community" which is what will help to keep our kids safe. Talking to one another, even if you don't live in the same neighborhood when you see each other out in the city at sporting events and such it lets your kids know that they can't get away with much when it seems that their parents know somebody know matter where they go in the city. It makes them think that someone is always watching. It just needs to be tempered with some responsibility, I'm sure you know people ILikeLI just like I do, who will take something and maybe not intentionally jazz it up a bit because it makes for a better story. It's possible that we even know some of the same people.
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garfield
Principal
cmic
Nov 19 2006, 10:40 AM
Gee Garfield,
You had an opportunity to apologize to loyaltolivonia and try to see things from her point of view when instead you became exactly the opposite, defensive and all about you and that you are the victim because your post was read wrong. Which by the way, I read it like 3 times and I can't for the life of me figure out how you wanted RUMORS! (3X) to be taken. Please help me to understand because I too know LTL and she is not an exaggerator and is a very sensitive, bright, caring individual whom has been fair to everyone on this site. In addition, her priorities are her children and keeping them safe, not pleasing the BOE or stroking it's ego. She has already said they are happy at the new 5/6 school and she is glad yet... there are still things to fix and room for improvement. So, please, calm down, and take it easy. Your posts will be respected much more if you do. ;)

I do believe the order of the posts was asking for an apology after I posted my second response. (I would have to reread all of them, but even if it wasn't, I didn't see it before posting. If I had, I would have apologized earlier.) You will also see Nancy stated that she and I were focusing on different words. She said she was sorry about the confusion. I too am sorry about the confusion.

As for apologizing to loyaltolivonia, I am sorry for offending her. I agree that people talk and should, my point being even with talking occurs, all the details of a situation are not known by everyone.

I don't know who many people are on this website and certainly don't know much about their character outside this forum. I also don't know any of the board members. I didn't know them before the recall election and haven't had much to do with them since. I don't need to stroke their egos, I'm too busy and don't see any purpose to it.

Loyaltolivonia, I am sorry for the way the post was written. My point was that when people claim nothing is happening to other children when it comes to discipline, that that isn't always the case. That info. is private and can't be shared with all parents.

cmic- I will leave off the rumors next time. Hopefully this clears things up for you and others. Have a great Thanksgiving holiday.
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cmic
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garfield
Nov 19 2006, 05:42 PM
cmic
Nov 19 2006, 10:40 AM
Gee Garfield,
You had an opportunity to apologize to loyaltolivonia and try to see things from her point of view when instead you became exactly the opposite, defensive and all about you and that you are the victim because your post was read wrong.  Which by the way, I read it like 3 times and I can't for the life of me figure out how you wanted RUMORS! (3X) to be taken.  Please help me to understand because I too know LTL and she is not an exaggerator and is a very sensitive, bright, caring individual whom has been fair to everyone on this site.  In addition, her priorities are her children and keeping them safe, not pleasing the BOE or stroking it's ego.  She has already said they are happy at the new 5/6 school and she is glad yet... there are still things to fix and room for improvement.  So, please, calm down, and take it easy.  Your posts will be respected much more if you do.  ;)

I do believe the order of the posts was asking for an apology after I posted my second response. (I would have to reread all of them, but even if it wasn't, I didn't see it before posting. If I had, I would have apologized earlier.) You will also see Nancy stated that she and I were focusing on different words. She said she was sorry about the confusion. I too am sorry about the confusion.

As for apologizing to loyaltolivonia, I am sorry for offending her. I agree that people talk and should, my point being even with talking occurs, all the details of a situation are not known by everyone.

I don't know who many people are on this website and certainly don't know much about their character outside this forum. I also don't know any of the board members. I didn't know them before the recall election and haven't had much to do with them since. I don't need to stroke their egos, I'm too busy and don't see any purpose to it.

Loyaltolivonia, I am sorry for the way the post was written. My point was that when people claim nothing is happening to other children when it comes to discipline, that that isn't always the case. That info. is private and can't be shared with all parents.

cmic- I will leave off the rumors next time. Hopefully this clears things up for you and others. Have a great Thanksgiving holiday.

Thank you garfield. :)
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loyaltolivonia
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garfield
Nov 19 2006, 04:42 PM
cmic
Nov 19 2006, 10:40 AM
Gee Garfield,
You had an opportunity to apologize to loyaltolivonia and try to see things from her point of view when instead you became exactly the opposite, defensive and all about you and that you are the victim because your post was read wrong.  Which by the way, I read it like 3 times and I can't for the life of me figure out how you wanted RUMORS! (3X) to be taken.  Please help me to understand because I too know LTL and she is not an exaggerator and is a very sensitive, bright, caring individual whom has been fair to everyone on this site.  In addition, her priorities are her children and keeping them safe, not pleasing the BOE or stroking it's ego.  She has already said they are happy at the new 5/6 school and she is glad yet... there are still things to fix and room for improvement.  So, please, calm down, and take it easy.  Your posts will be respected much more if you do.  ;)

I do believe the order of the posts was asking for an apology after I posted my second response. (I would have to reread all of them, but even if it wasn't, I didn't see it before posting. If I had, I would have apologized earlier.) You will also see Nancy stated that she and I were focusing on different words. She said she was sorry about the confusion. I too am sorry about the confusion.

As for apologizing to loyaltolivonia, I am sorry for offending her. I agree that people talk and should, my point being even with talking occurs, all the details of a situation are not known by everyone.

I don't know who many people are on this website and certainly don't know much about their character outside this forum. I also don't know any of the board members. I didn't know them before the recall election and haven't had much to do with them since. I don't need to stroke their egos, I'm too busy and don't see any purpose to it.

Loyaltolivonia, I am sorry for the way the post was written. My point was that when people claim nothing is happening to other children when it comes to discipline, that that isn't always the case. That info. is private and can't be shared with all parents.

cmic- I will leave off the rumors next time. Hopefully this clears things up for you and others. Have a great Thanksgiving holiday.

Thank you garfield. I understood what you were trying to say, but in turn, you need to understand that this is no wild rumor being spread for the fun of it! I believe this is very serious stuff and to be told I don't know what is going on or that I was spreading rumors ruffled my feathers, to say the least!

I think I took offense so quickly because SO many times, the people who oppose the LI are told by people who have supported the LI "Don't worry, it will be fine", "It's takes a while to work out the kinks", "You're not giving it a chance" and my personal favorite "This all happened before the LI was put in place"! Well, guess what? ALL of the stuff that is happening now at Johnson never happened at Randolph (At least not in the 6 years my son was there k-5) I don't like it. I am a little scared for my 6th grader and I believe something should be done about the junk going on there.

So instead of placating phrases or our Superintendent smiling and saying "everythings running smoothly" won't someone please admit that it is NOT fine and someone needs to take a hard look at making things right "For all the children"?!



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