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anti-bullying/self defense clarification; suspended for defending self?
Topic Started: Nov 13 2006, 08:45 PM (2,881 Views)
NFarquharson
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Principal
Sometimes the whole idea of "zero tolerance" for bullying, threats, violence or weapons is taken too far:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/kindergartner_knife

Kindergartner suspended for having knife Tue Nov 14, 7:40 PM ET

LEXINGTON, S.C. - A 5-year-old kindergartner brought a folding pocket knife to school and faces expulsion, officials said Tuesday.

The Saxe Gothe Elementary School student tried to use the knife to open his sealed lunch in the cafeteria on Monday, said Mary Beth Hill, spokeswoman for Lexington County School District 1.

The student never threatened anyone at the school, and officials believe he was unaware he did anything wrong, Hill said.

State law says it is illegal to bring any weapon onto school grounds, but the child is too young to face any criminal charges, Lexington County Sheriff James Metts said.

According to district policy, the student was suspended immediately, pending an expulsion hearing, Hill said.
_____________________________________________

I would be concerned about the parents that allowed a kindergartener to somehow access a pocket knife, but it sure doesn't sound like the kid was a threat to anyone!

I also remember hearing a few years ago about a boy that was suspended from an elementary school because he used his thumb and forefinger to make an imaginary gun and was "shooting" kids on the playground. Anyone who has a boy and has tried to be "weapon free" knows that it is just about impossible to stop this form of play. Do you think some schools are taking this a little too far?
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chickmunk
5th Grade
I saw on a website (I think it was called endzerotolerance.com, but I can't find it now) how kids all over are getting suspended for things like fighting back after being attacked, bringing tylenol to school, saying someone is "on their list" (meaning crap list,) or even turning themselves in for having a keychain pocketknife (left over from a weekend job or activity.) (These are not LPS incidences, though. ) I do want my children in a safe environment, & I appreciate the effort on the part of the schools, but sometimes I do think it is taken too far. And taking away a childs right to defend him/herself is just wrong.
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2tots
Principal
I think iron-clad zero tolerance policies are ridiculous. There are very few times when a one-size-fits-all approach works for every problem. There was a case in Livonia a few years back where a middle school student was being tormented by other kids on the way home day after day. So he decided to bring one of those little 16" bats that you get on "bat day" at the ball park for self defense (in the misguided wisdom of a 12 year old). Well, he got caught with the bat in his backpack and was expelled from the LPS system. The bullies got off scott free. But the arguement was "Well, we have a zero tolerance policy. We had no choice". Nonsense.
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Hullparent
Principal
There is a lack of common sense and political correctness has taken control. People are so scared of defending what is correct and acknowledging there are truths and absolutes. If my children were ever expelled from Public school for defending themselves quite honestly I'd say Oh well - and we'd move on to a better school situation. If nothing else this past year I've come to realize there is more out there than our public school system - and I'm not afraid to pursue it.
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NFarquharson
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Principal
2tots
Nov 15 2006, 06:03 PM
I think iron-clad zero tolerance policies are ridiculous. There are very few times when a one-size-fits-all approach works for every problem. There was a case in Livonia a few years back where a middle school student was being tormented by other kids on the way home day after day. So he decided to bring one of those little 16" bats that you get on "bat day" at the ball park for self defense (in the misguided wisdom of a 12 year old). Well, he got caught with the bat in his backpack and was expelled from the LPS system. The bullies got off scott free. But the arguement was "Well, we have a zero tolerance policy. We had no choice". Nonsense.

Policies are meant to be guidelines that set a philosophical framework around decision-making. They are no substitute for reason and independant judgement. Most professionals get paid to make decisions. Using the policy as an excuse for failing to make a good decision, the right decision, is a cop out.
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Corwin
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2tots
Nov 15 2006, 07:03 PM
I think iron-clad zero tolerance policies are ridiculous.  There are very few times when a one-size-fits-all approach works for every problem.  There was a case in Livonia a few years back where a middle school student was being tormented by other kids on the way home day after day.  So he decided to bring one of those little 16" bats that you get on "bat day" at the ball park for self defense (in the misguided wisdom of a 12 year old).  Well, he got caught with the bat in his backpack and was expelled from the LPS system.  The bullies got off scott free.  But the arguement was "Well, we have a zero tolerance policy.  We had no choice".  Nonsense.

I have heard that the student also used the bat on another student and that is what got him expelled. It is too bad that he felt the need to protect himself in this way (whether he used it or not), but I don't see how the school system can allow students to use/carry weapons - even if it is just a mini-bat - to solve problems.
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ILIkeLI
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Principal
Corwin
Nov 16 2006, 02:48 PM
but I don't see how the school system can allow students to use/carry weapons - even if it is just a mini-bat - to solve problems.

The district should be doing more to deal with bullying behavior so that kids who are bullied do not feel that they need to take matters into their own hands. Yes, they shouldn't allow a mini-bat at school... but the situation should have never been allowed to progress to that point. And in the kids defense, if the adults at school aren't protecting you, well what would you do??
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mega millions
Principal
ILIkeLI
Nov 16 2006, 04:38 PM
Corwin
Nov 16 2006, 02:48 PM
but I don't see how the school system can allow students to use/carry weapons - even if it is just a mini-bat - to solve problems.

The district should be doing more to deal with bullying behavior so that kids who are bullied do not feel that they need to take matters into their own hands. Yes, they shouldn't allow a mini-bat at school... but the situation should have never been allowed to progress to that point. And in the kids defense, if the adults at school aren't protecting you, well what would you do??

And parents should be on the look out for behavior that would suggest their child is being bullied or is a bully. If we all work together we could solve the problem together.
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Grant1
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We have just begun to fight!
mega millions
Nov 16 2006, 08:09 PM
ILIkeLI
Nov 16 2006, 04:38 PM
Corwin
Nov 16 2006, 02:48 PM
but I don't see how the school system can allow students to use/carry weapons - even if it is just a mini-bat - to solve problems.

The district should be doing more to deal with bullying behavior so that kids who are bullied do not feel that they need to take matters into their own hands. Yes, they shouldn't allow a mini-bat at school... but the situation should have never been allowed to progress to that point. And in the kids defense, if the adults at school aren't protecting you, well what would you do??

And parents should be on the look out for behavior that would suggest their child is being bullied or is a bully. If we all work together we could solve the problem together.

Unfortunately the behaviour is a direct result of the LIe and we should have never had to get to this point in the first place

Now we all have to work together to correct a condition brought on by the LIe.

Wouldn't it have been much easier on everyone if they had done thier homework beforehand?

Wouldn't it be much easier if the district would acknowledge thier mistakes and take full responsibilities and actions to correct everything?

It never needed to fall onto the sholders of the children and parents, nor the teachers. These are the people who do not have to directly deal with these situations, and as far as the Central Office goes....the overwhelming majority of the decision makers don't even live in this district, so they have no vested interest in solving these problems.

There is only one place to look towards when we ask "why" at each one of these events that happens... to the Central Office and the BOE, where the problems originated.

They are not the ones dealing with these issues directly, they stand insulated and apart from the community since the majority of the Central Office does not even live in this community.
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mega millions
Principal
Grant1
Nov 16 2006, 08:20 PM
mega millions
Nov 16 2006, 08:09 PM
ILIkeLI
Nov 16 2006, 04:38 PM
Corwin
Nov 16 2006, 02:48 PM
but I don't see how the school system can allow students to use/carry weapons - even if it is just a mini-bat - to solve problems.

The district should be doing more to deal with bullying behavior so that kids who are bullied do not feel that they need to take matters into their own hands. Yes, they shouldn't allow a mini-bat at school... but the situation should have never been allowed to progress to that point. And in the kids defense, if the adults at school aren't protecting you, well what would you do??

And parents should be on the look out for behavior that would suggest their child is being bullied or is a bully. If we all work together we could solve the problem together.

Unfortunately the behaviour is a direct result of the LIe and we should have never had to get to this point in the first place

Now we all have to work together to correct a condition brought on by the LIe.

Wouldn't it have been much easier on everyone if they had done thier homework beforehand?

Wouldn't it be much easier if the district would acknowledge thier mistakes and take full responsibilities and actions to correct everything?

It never needed to fall onto the sholders of the children and parents, nor the teachers. These are the people who do not have to directly deal with these situations, and as far as the Central Office goes....the overwhelming majority of the decision makers don't even live in this district, so they have no vested interest in solving these problems.

There is only one place to look towards when we ask "why" at each one of these events that happens... to the Central Office and the BOE, where the problems originated.

They are not the ones dealing with these issues directly, they stand insulated and apart from the community since the majority of the Central Office does not even live in this community.


The incident in question happened before the LI therefore it cannot be the result of the LI. Bullying in degree or another is an issue every year for some kids. As their parents, it is our responsibility to know what is going on and to advocate on their behalf. This is not 100% the school's responsibility. It requires input from all in order to correct the situation. Situations before the LI involved threats to bring guns to school in the K-6 schools, bomb threats in the K-6 schools. Not new issues here guys. Bullying will be around no matter what the grade configuration it has been around for years. I don't condone it and my heart bleeds for any child going through it. It is very upsetting when your child is the one being bullied.
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NFarquharson
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Principal
I am certain that bullying happened before the LI. Unfortunately, there is clear and convincing data that shows that serious behavior problems increase with school size, so we may well see an increase. While no one can attribute a specific incedent directly to the LI, there is certainly a higher likelihood of such incedents in the large schools.
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fyi
Principal
Mega
 
Situations before the LI involved threats to bring guns to school in the K-6 schools, bomb threats in the K-6 schools. Not new issues here guys.


Where is the data to support this? I have lived in this city for almost 10 years and I don't remember hearing about this before this year in our elementary schools?

Where and when did it occur?
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mega millions
Principal
fyi
Nov 17 2006, 08:13 AM
Mega
 
Situations before the LI involved threats to bring guns to school in the K-6 schools, bomb threats in the K-6 schools. Not new issues here guys.


Where is the data to support this? I have lived in this city for almost 10 years and I don't remember hearing about this before this year in our elementary schools?

Where and when did it occur?

A 6th Grader said he was going to bring a gun to school. This incident happened last year towards the end of the school year (April/May??) at Buchanan with a sixth grader. A letter was sent home to everyone advising of the situation. the child was suspended until a full investigation could be completed. I don't know if he threatened to hurt anyone or if it was just a statement he was going to bring his dad's gun to school.

Just because you don't hear of something, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Let's think of the child. Should his name be spread all over the city before a complete investigation? Innocent until proven guilty is how it works. I don't even know the outcome of the investigation. The principal notified peple throught a letter that there was a potential problem and stated that the child would not be allowed to return to school until they were sure there would be no danger to the other children. If I still had the letter I would scan it and post it, but I don't.

I am sure you can FOIA the letter from Buchanan. Kids are still kids. This stuff goes on every year in just about every school in some form or another. We are lucky that it has just turned out to be kids pranks, but you can't be too careful these days.

The schools need to be very careful on how these are handled. You certainly wouldn't want a misunderstanding involving your child spread throughout the whole city and if someone was threatening to hurt your child you would want to know about it.

As for the bomb threat, I am not as familiar with it but someone did post about the one last year also.
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JoJo
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Principal
The question still remains................Why create mega 5/6 schools when more of this kind of behavior and problems occur?
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ktmom
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Principal
mega millions
Nov 17 2006, 08:26 AM
fyi
Nov 17 2006, 08:13 AM
Mega
 
Situations before the LI involved threats to bring guns to school in the K-6 schools, bomb threats in the K-6 schools. Not new issues here guys.


Where is the data to support this? I have lived in this city for almost 10 years and I don't remember hearing about this before this year in our elementary schools?

Where and when did it occur?

A 6th Grader said he was going to bring a gun to school. This incident happened last year towards the end of the school year (April/May??) at Buchanan with a sixth grader. A letter was sent home to everyone advising of the situation. the child was suspended until a full investigation could be completed. I don't know if he threatened to hurt anyone or if it was just a statement he was going to bring his dad's gun to school.

Just because you don't hear of something, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Let's think of the child. Should his name be spread all over the city before a complete investigation? Innocent until proven guilty is how it works. I don't even know the outcome of the investigation. The principal notified peple throught a letter that there was a potential problem and stated that the child would not be allowed to return to school until they were sure there would be no danger to the other children. If I still had the letter I would scan it and post it, but I don't.

I am sure you can FOIA the letter from Buchanan. Kids are still kids. This stuff goes on every year in just about every school in some form or another. We are lucky that it has just turned out to be kids pranks, but you can't be too careful these days.

The schools need to be very careful on how these are handled. You certainly wouldn't want a misunderstanding involving your child spread throughout the whole city and if someone was threatening to hurt your child you would want to know about it.

As for the bomb threat, I am not as familiar with it but someone did post about the one last year also.

So this kind of behavior is acceptable to you in Elementary schools? Because it happened before the LI? The fact is that previously these elementary schools have been in our neighborhoods where we know a lot of the kids. Now they are miles and miles from home. I am really tired of reading your posts that try and make light of parents concerns that are actually in these situations. I suppose you think its acceptable to have a bus stop across from where known sex offenders live?

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