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K-8 School; Why Not?
Topic Started: Nov 10 2006, 08:33 PM (1,595 Views)
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NFarquharson
Nov 11 2006, 11:19 AM
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Myself...I greatly prefer K-6 or K-8 neighborhood schools, but this might be a little better than what we have now. What do other people think?

Anything that cuts out a transition, keeps kids in one school longer, and keeps them closer to home, would keep me in the district.
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CKlockner
Principal
For any of you who have had kids go through middle school you know that those two years fly by. Your kid just starts feeling comfortable and its over, on to high school. This same thing will be happening twice now with the 5/6 schools and then middle school. We need to get rid of a transition. I think k-8 would work much better than the 5-6, 7-8 we have now if done right.
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fyi
Principal
CKlockner
Nov 11 2006, 10:37 AM
For any of you who have had kids go through middle school you know that those two years fly by. Your kid just starts feeling comfortable and its over, on to high school. This same thing will be happening twice now with the 5/6 schools and then middle school. We need to get rid of a transition. I think k-8 would work much better than the 5-6, 7-8 we have now if done right.

I agree CK.
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Pete
Principal
NFarquharson
Nov 11 2006, 10:19 AM
livoniamom
Nov 11 2006, 09:44 AM
If Livonia did all K-8 schools, I am sure they would have at least 600, if not more kids in it.  It would defeat the goal of smaller, neighborhood schools in my opinion.

And again, I would not want my 5 year old riding on a bus with 13 year olds, especially unsupervised -- no way, no how.  I rode the bus in middle school with 12 and 13 year olds and they were AWFUL!  (yelling, spitting, swearing, destructive)  -- I begged my mother to drive me.

I don't think 13 year olds and 5 and 6 year olds have a lot in common -- so things like fun fairs, assemblies, field day etc... would have to be separate events. 

What about K-4 schools like right now and next is 5-8 schools?  The 5-8 schools could be run as upper elementary schools and totally eliminate the middle school concept.  I might go for that. 

This leads me to think -- why were people so opposed to 6th graders being in the middle schools but they have no problem with kindergarteners being in the same schools as 8th graders?  I know in all the middle schools in Walled Lake the 6th graders have their own "wing" so that can't be the issue.

Remember...it is the number of kids per grade that is most important rather than the total number.

Many people are okay with leaving their 5 or 6 year old in the hands of a 13 year old babysitter, but they don't want them on the same bus. Part of the beauty of mixing a variety of ages together is that the older kids tend to behave better, just like that 13 year old babysitter may act differently when with a bunch of her friends compared to when she is taking care of 3 kids on a Saturday night.

That being said, I have also thought about whether it would be better to have six 5-8 eight schools instead of three 5-6 and three 7-8. It would eliminate a transition and would keep the majority of kids closer to their homes. It would also cut the current number of kids per grade in each school in half, even thought he total number would be the same. What would it be like if Holmes, Riley, Frost, Johnson, Emerson and Cooper were all 5-8 schools and your child attended the closest one for four years? Could they try to keep half of the building for the 5th and 6th graders and half for the 7th and 8th graders?

Myself...I greatly prefer K-6 or K-8 neighborhood schools, but this might be a little better than what we have now. What do other people think?

Very interesting. First off, no matter how you slice it, I prefer 2 or 3 K-12 transitions opposed to 4 transitions as we have now. I agree w/ the notion that older kids behave better when in the company of younger children and would mentor and naturally become good examples to the younger kids. I am also a big proponent of fewer transitions but also am a big believer of neighborhood schools. I believe K-8 is great but on the down side might produce too few schools, probably most not within neighborhoods. That said I don't know if I would prefer K-8. Until more info is provided as to how many K-8 schools there might be and where they were situated, I could not say at this time.

I am not at all a fan of K-4, 5-8, 9-12....though still better than the awful (4) transition debachle we have now. I think the chemistry of a 5-8 schools would be that of a young junior high. I think the school chemistry of mentoring will not work without younger kids and grades. I think it would be a bad school environment.

In order to have neighborhood schools and three at most transitions, I believe K-6 probably is and was the best configuration. Perhaps K-7, 8-9, 10-12 would be good depending on the number of Elem schools and if they are neighborhood schools??? Of course, cost for these plans are a large part of the equation.
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GrantGrid3
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NFarquharson
Nov 11 2006, 08:04 AM
GrantGrid3
Nov 11 2006, 07:50 AM
2tots
Nov 10 2006, 11:49 PM
livoniamom
Nov 10 2006, 10:53 PM
A K-8 school does not interest me.  I really would not want my 5 year old in the same school with 13 year olds (or riding the bus with them for that matter).


Why do you feel that way?

This is one area that concerned me as well, but now that we are several month's into our new school year, I can't say enough how much I love the K-8. It is great to watch how the older children interact with the younger children, and the pride they take in "helping" the younger kids. Yes, one can argue that the younger children can learn certain things too early, but there are pro's and con's to every situation, and because of the small school size/more supervision, it is less likely to be a concern. The mentoring, buddy systems etc. that my kid's are receiving from the older children is invaluable, IMO.

That is the beauty of smaller K-8 schools, and small for K-8 can be bigger than you think because what matters is the number of students per grade. The older kids behavior is better, because they are well known and closely watched, rather than making that transition to aninimity at a giant middle school with so many students per grade level.

Yes...K-8 can be "bigger" which is probably why I choose the smaller K-8 school in the area. My son's first grade class has 18 children and the teacher also has a part time parapro!

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Aunt Bea
Principal
Mrs.M
Nov 11 2006, 10:08 AM
Providing the bussing could be done the same way it's done for Webster.  The students are coming from throughout LPS; they are gathered together at Frost and the switches to the final (Webster) buses are made in the Frost parking lot.

Grant1  there wasn't a whole lot of anything coming from the demo committee.

Webster is not the same as a school of choice. It is a service provided by the district to a seleted group of students who qualify for those services and therefore, transportation should be provided. It was suggested that the a K-8 could be offered at Dickenson for parents who prefer that option over what is available to all K-8 students in the district. In SOC, if I don't want to send my child to my local elementary, I provide the transportation to the other school. See the distinction I was trying to make?

It is not worth an argument, but I was trying to suggest that any new plans on the table had to come with plans of how they would be financially realistic. I think we learned a lot this year about what additional bus runs cost.
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2tots
Principal
livoniamom
Nov 11 2006, 09:44 AM
If Livonia did all K-8 schools, I am sure they would have at least 600, if not more kids in it.  It would defeat the goal of smaller, neighborhood schools in my opinion.

And again, I would not want my 5 year old riding on a bus with 13 year olds, especially unsupervised -- no way, no how.  I rode the bus in middle school with 12 and 13 year olds and they were AWFUL!  (yelling, spitting, swearing, destructive)  -- I begged my mother to drive me.

I don't think 13 year olds and 5 and 6 year olds have a lot in common -- so things like fun fairs, assemblies, field day etc... would have to be separate events. 

What about K-4 schools like right now and next is 5-8 schools?  The 5-8 schools could be run as upper elementary schools and totally eliminate the middle school concept.  I might go for that. 

This leads me to think -- why were people so opposed to 6th graders being in the middle schools but they have no problem with kindergarteners being in the same schools as 8th graders?  I know in all the middle schools in Walled Lake the 6th graders have their own "wing" so that can't be the issue.

There is a huge difference between elementary schools and middle school and it is not necessarily the age of the kids. The number of kids per grade level is a big factor. There is a sense of anonimity in the middle schools because there are so many kids of the same age group. That's where you start running into serious behavior issues -- kids feel they can get away with more. Think about it, if you were 12, where would you feel more inclined to misbehave, in a setting where all of the teachers and staff members in the building know you or where you are just a nameless kid in a crowd? I've said this before on this forum. Think back to when you were a middle schooler (or in my day, junior high). Where were you when you smoked your first cigarette, had your first drink, skipped your first class, etc, etc, etc? Most likely you were not in elementary school. Not that there aren't discipline problems in elementary school, but let's face it, there are more problems in middle school.

You say you do not want your 5 year old on the same bus as 13 year olds. You are forgetting that there are also 6, 7, 8 ...year olds on that bus too. If I had a 5 year old child and a 12 or 13 year old child, I would love it if they could be on the bus together. If you give the older children a sense of responsibility over the younger ones, they would rise to the occassion. Someone mentioned babysitting earlier. This is another bonus in my eyes. If you have a young one and 12 or 13 year old neighbor child, you can enlist the neighbor child to look out for your little one. That gives you a win-win situation -- the older child is given a responsibility and a sense of purpose and the younger one is looked after.

I also LOVE the idea of keeping families together in one building for as long as possible. It's good for the kids as well as the parents and teachers and everyone else involved in your child's education. The staff really gets to know not only your child, but the whole family and you really get to know the staff. And neighbors and neighborhoods get to know one another better, too. You tend to all look out for one another.
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Mrs.M
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Aunt Bea,

Do you believe parents choose to send their children to Webster?

Do you believe they choose to send them to Webster for the opportunity to advance and compliment/supplement their needs?

Can parents choose to keep their child in their 'home(neighborhood) school'?

I wonder how many parents would still send their child to Webster if transportation was NOT provided?

The same applies to CAPA, MSC and MACAT. If the student 'qualifies' for entry into one of these special groups, parents and the students choose to attend or enroll in those programs. I would certainly hope the district is not forcing the parent or student to enroll in the program. Providing transportation just makes it more appealing to the parents as does the sibling rule (another perk that may be being abused).
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Mrs.M
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Jimid
Nov 11 2006, 09:57 AM
The bus would be a concern if you had one K-8. But then again, it would be a choice for you to attend. If we had all K-8 neighborhood schools, most kids would be walkers. We could probably cut transportation costs in at least half. Put that money in the classroom.

My response to the bussing was in reference to the above quote. I read it as 'How could LPS provide the bussing for a K-8 school?'
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livoniamom
Principal
NFarquharson
Nov 11 2006, 10:19 AM

That being said, I have also thought about whether it would be better to have six 5-8 eight schools instead of three 5-6 and three 7-8. It would eliminate a transition and would keep the majority of kids closer to their homes. It would also cut the current number of kids per grade in each school in half, even thought he total number would be the same. What would it be like if Holmes, Riley, Frost, Johnson, Emerson and Cooper were all 5-8 schools and your child attended the closest one for four years? Could they try to keep half of the building for the 5th and 6th graders and half for the 7th and 8th graders?

Myself...I greatly prefer K-6 or K-8 neighborhood schools, but this might be a little better than what we have now. What do other people think?



The idea is growing on me. As long as these would be UPPER ELEMENTARY and not any sort of middle school where they are shuffled from teacher to teacher.

Why not throw in opening Dickenson as a 5-8 school in there since it will only cost $700,000 to do so? (Afterall, if 4 million is not a lot of money, $700,000 is nothing). At least NW Livonia would have SOMETHING instead of the current NOTHING they have now.

In our case, we still would not have a neighborhood school but at least we'd have one less tramatic transition to a "Mega School." It would also eliminate middle schools which I think everyone agree are not great environments for children.

Do you think children that do not attend middle school have a harder time transitioning to high school?

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livoniamom
Principal
I think reading this thread proves that there is no concensus on what is best for LPS as far as grade configuration. Some people view the older children (age 13) as "mentors" -- I have seen how they behave in my neighborhood -- they would scare the you-know-what out of my timid 5 year old -- trust me.

Maybe the push should remain K-6 because that is what worked before in this district. Then again, why even discuss because it will be a cold day in hell before the BOE changes anything back to the way it was. This is probably a waste of time.

PS: Could the lawsuit be brought back up because now they can prove "damages"?? (IE: loss of students)

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Mrs.M
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livoniamom
Nov 11 2006, 01:12 PM



The idea is growing on me.  As long as these would be UPPER ELEMENTARY and not any sort of middle school where they are shuffled from teacher to teacher. 

Not all 5/6 classes change teachers; there are a few that keep the same teacher for all core subjects. Here's hoping that teacher is enthusiastic and keeps the students' interest for the entire day.

Pre LI, students did change classes in the 2-6 grades, they went as a class to another teacher whose love and possibly major was in a particular field.
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Administrator
Administrator
Aunt Bea
Nov 11 2006, 12:50 PM
Mrs.M
Nov 11 2006, 10:08 AM
Providing the bussing could be done the same way it's done for Webster.  The students are coming from throughout LPS; they are gathered together at Frost and the switches to the final (Webster) buses are made in the Frost parking lot.

Grant1  there wasn't a whole lot of anything coming from the demo committee.

Webster is not the same as a school of choice. It is a service provided by the district to a seleted group of students who qualify for those services and therefore, transportation should be provided. It was suggested that the a K-8 could be offered at Dickenson for parents who prefer that option over what is available to all K-8 students in the district. In SOC, if I don't want to send my child to my local elementary, I provide the transportation to the other school. See the distinction I was trying to make?

It is not worth an argument, but I was trying to suggest that any new plans on the table had to come with plans of how they would be financially realistic. I think we learned a lot this year about what additional bus runs cost.

The financial aspect of opening a K-8 is not a problem. We can afford it, we know that. If it keeps 200 kids in the district, it more than pays for itself. The administration does not seem to get the fact that most people don't complain, they just leave. We have to do something this year, because if another 400 leave next year, we are screwed to put it midly. And they will leave without choices.
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chs3
1st Grade
[ *  * ]
Mrs.M
Nov 11 2006, 12:42 PM
Aunt Bea,

Do you believe parents choose to send their children to Webster?

Do you believe they choose to send them to Webster for the opportunity to advance and compliment/supplement their needs?

Can parents choose to keep their child in their 'home(neighborhood) school'?

I wonder how many parents would still send their child to Webster if transportation was NOT provided?

The same applies to CAPA, MSC and MACAT. If the student 'qualifies' for entry into one of these special groups, parents and the students choose to attend or enroll in those programs. I would certainly hope the district is not forcing the parent or student to enroll in the program. Providing transportation just makes it more appealing to the parents as does the sibling rule (another perk that may be being abused).

Webster has families that not only move into Livonia for the ACAT program, but many families move from out of state, into Livonia just to become eligible to test for the program. Whether the school district would bus your child there or not, would be of little issue to many parents.



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fyi
Principal
livoniamom
Nov 11 2006, 01:19 PM
I think reading this thread proves that there is no concensus on what is best for LPS as far as grade configuration. Some people view the older children (age 13) as "mentors" -- I have seen how they behave in my neighborhood -- they would scare the you-know-what out of my timid 5 year old -- trust me.

Maybe the push should remain K-6 because that is what worked before in this district. Then again, why even discuss because it will be a cold day in hell before the BOE changes anything back to the way it was. This is probably a waste of time.

PS: Could the lawsuit be brought back up because now they can prove "damages"?? (IE: loss of students)

13 year olds, 10, 5, and 2 year olds can co-exist together. They already do in many families---including my own.
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