| K-8 School; Why Not? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 10 2006, 08:33 PM (1,596 Views) | |
| GrantGrid3 | Nov 11 2006, 07:50 AM Post #16 |
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Principal
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This is one area that concerned me as well, but now that we are several month's into our new school year, I can't say enough how much I love the K-8. It is great to watch how the older children interact with the younger children, and the pride they take in "helping" the younger kids. Yes, one can argue that the younger children can learn certain things too early, but there are pro's and con's to every situation, and because of the small school size/more supervision, it is less likely to be a concern. The mentoring, buddy systems etc. that my kid's are receiving from the older children is invaluable, IMO. |
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| NFarquharson | Nov 11 2006, 08:04 AM Post #17 |
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Principal
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That is the beauty of smaller K-8 schools, and small for K-8 can be bigger than you think because what matters is the number of students per grade. The older kids behavior is better, because they are well known and closely watched, rather than making that transition to aninimity at a giant middle school with so many students per grade level. |
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| Anna Krome | Nov 11 2006, 08:21 AM Post #18 |
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Principal
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TIME did a huge comparison of the middle school concept vs. K-8 last August. I've posted the article before. I'll try to find it. The consensus was that K-8 is coming back steadily across the US. Yes, I was in K-8, and I loved it. I felt very prepared to enter HS--very nurtured--the teachers know you and your sibs--so well. Big family. A bit like differentiated learning. Your strengths and weaknesses are well observed--and the instructors know you so well--they respond in kind. If a kid--any age--had a problem w/"being a good citizen" at school--they were swiftly dealt with. There's bullying going on in K-4--there's no guarantee that it will not occur., solely based on age. Dealing w/problems right away keeps things under control. AK |
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| fyi | Nov 11 2006, 09:07 AM Post #19 |
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Principal
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I really do believe Livonia needs to do something to keep people interested in the district or they will lose more kids next year. I know some egos have been injured, but it's time to put that aside and more forward NOW. The district can't afford to wait...... They were willing to take a chance and invest millions in a plan that doesn't appear to be saving them any $$$. How much $$$ would it cost to open up (1) k-8 school? I think it would pay for itself the 1st year. |
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| livoniamom | Nov 11 2006, 09:44 AM Post #20 |
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Principal
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If Livonia did all K-8 schools, I am sure they would have at least 600, if not more kids in it. It would defeat the goal of smaller, neighborhood schools in my opinion. And again, I would not want my 5 year old riding on a bus with 13 year olds, especially unsupervised -- no way, no how. I rode the bus in middle school with 12 and 13 year olds and they were AWFUL! (yelling, spitting, swearing, destructive) -- I begged my mother to drive me. I don't think 13 year olds and 5 and 6 year olds have a lot in common -- so things like fun fairs, assemblies, field day etc... would have to be separate events. What about K-4 schools like right now and next is 5-8 schools? The 5-8 schools could be run as upper elementary schools and totally eliminate the middle school concept. I might go for that. This leads me to think -- why were people so opposed to 6th graders being in the middle schools but they have no problem with kindergarteners being in the same schools as 8th graders? I know in all the middle schools in Walled Lake the 6th graders have their own "wing" so that can't be the issue. |
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| Administrator | Nov 11 2006, 09:57 AM Post #21 |
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Administrator
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The bus would be a concern if you had one K-8. But then again, it would be a choice for you to attend. If we had all K-8 neighborhood schools, most kids would be walkers. We could probably cut transportation costs in at least half. Put that money in the classroom. |
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| Aunt Bea | Nov 11 2006, 10:00 AM Post #22 |
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Principal
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The problem with pilot programs in most industries is that you usually have to have some sort of additional independent funding source for the experiment because they are costly and can not be managed in your normal operating budget. It seems that in order to take on such a thing as this you would not only need the sinking fund costs of opening up a new building but you would minimally have a great deal of additional staff costs. Lets just stay that in a K-8 building at Dickenson you would open up two classrooms for each grade for a total of 18 classrooms (450 students). That would pull a few students from schools here and there across the district- not enough to cut an entire classroom anywhere. So, where would people propose that Livonia (or any school district) get the cash to open up such a pilot program? These would be additional staff costs, not redirected staff costs. Besides 18 staff there are support staff for that facility. If such a pilot program were to be tried, would parents from across the district be willing to provide their own transportation (because it would fall under a "school of choice"). That would save under the extra transportation cost. I thinking these are the kinds of obstacles that the demographics committee came up against when K-8 came up on the table. The barriers were just too great to overcome, even if this idea had some promise. |
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| Grant1 | Nov 11 2006, 10:02 AM Post #23 |
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We have just begun to fight!
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There is no data from the demo comm that even mentions k-8 "coming to the table" |
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| Mrs.M | Nov 11 2006, 10:08 AM Post #24 |
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Principal
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Providing the bussing could be done the same way it's done for Webster. The students are coming from throughout LPS; they are gathered together at Frost and the switches to the final (Webster) buses are made in the Frost parking lot. Grant1 there wasn't a whole lot of anything coming from the demo committee. |
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| fyi | Nov 11 2006, 10:11 AM Post #25 |
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Principal
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I don't like the short span at the 5/6 and 7/8 schools. If they are not going to consider a k-8 school, they should consider eliminating a transition. It seems if they bothered to poll their customers, they would learn that most people do not support short grade spans and large school size. I was against putting the 6th graders with the middle schoolers before the LI, but I was not aware that the alternative would be mega 5/6 schools. There is a way they could structure the middle schools to separate the 6th graders from the 7th and 8th graders. They could do the same with a k-8 school. The bottom line is many people are very dissatisfied with the current configuration. They will never please everyone, but they can offer parents a choice. They have an opportunity to do something truly unique and innovative. Imagine a school in Livonia with a waiting list to get in.......they just might attract students from other areas. |
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| mikefromholland | Nov 11 2006, 10:17 AM Post #26 |
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Principal
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Holland's K-8 school had 671 students as of the September count. It's possible to design a K-8 school with fewer students. Holland chose to put 3 sections per grade because the building they chose had been a middle school and it had large capacity. With 2 sections per grade, a K-8 school would have about 450 capacity, assuming 25 students in a classroom. One of the alternatives (there were about 9 of them) proposed as a result of the Community Advisory Committee planning process in Holland last year was a K-4, 5-8 system. The design implemented this fall in Holland has two choices: K-3, 4-5, 6-8 or K-8 It's interesting to check the enrollment numbers versus the design capacity K-3, 4-5, 6-8 -- designed for 2770, enrolling 2291 (83% of capacity) K-8 -- designed for 750, enrolling 671 (89% of capacity) which suggests that the K-8 is somewhat more popular than expected. And that is despite being a non-neighborhood school since there is only one K-8 for the whole district. |
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| fyi | Nov 11 2006, 10:18 AM Post #27 |
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Principal
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They were able to find the funding for the experimental LI plan. It was very costly and didn't save the district any money. A k-8 school has the potential to bring $$$ into the district.....can you say the same for the LI? I would gladly provide my own transportation for a k-8 school, but I think LPS could work out the transportation issues for (1) school. LPS "has to do something" they are losing too many students. |
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| NFarquharson | Nov 11 2006, 10:19 AM Post #28 |
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Principal
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Remember...it is the number of kids per grade that is most important rather than the total number. Many people are okay with leaving their 5 or 6 year old in the hands of a 13 year old babysitter, but they don't want them on the same bus. Part of the beauty of mixing a variety of ages together is that the older kids tend to behave better, just like that 13 year old babysitter may act differently when with a bunch of her friends compared to when she is taking care of 3 kids on a Saturday night. That being said, I have also thought about whether it would be better to have six 5-8 eight schools instead of three 5-6 and three 7-8. It would eliminate a transition and would keep the majority of kids closer to their homes. It would also cut the current number of kids per grade in each school in half, even thought he total number would be the same. What would it be like if Holmes, Riley, Frost, Johnson, Emerson and Cooper were all 5-8 schools and your child attended the closest one for four years? Could they try to keep half of the building for the 5th and 6th graders and half for the 7th and 8th graders? Myself...I greatly prefer K-6 or K-8 neighborhood schools, but this might be a little better than what we have now. What do other people think? |
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| mikefromholland | Nov 11 2006, 10:19 AM Post #29 |
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Principal
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These are good points. I will explain how they were handled in Holland this fall, successfully in my opinion, a bit later... (I'm on my way to Chicago for the weekend now) |
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| Administrator | Nov 11 2006, 10:24 AM Post #30 |
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Administrator
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The configuration we have now is by far more of an experiment than K-8. K-8 is proven, and well established. As for the money, we lost 4.4 million in revenue this year due to the LI. It would cost about $700,000 to refurbish Dickenson. And about $800,000 a year to run it?? Just a guess. As for where does the money come from.....I am sure we can find 1.5 million in the same place they "found" 3.5 million in this years budget. |
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