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Topic Started: Nov 2 2006, 09:04 AM (1,831 Views)
loyaltolivonia
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Mrs.M
Nov 3 2006, 10:22 AM
But before people jump on this post..The topic began as detention in the 5/6 schools. Referring to the 5/6 as upper elementary is a mask, unmasked, it is a pre middle school. It seems the 5/6 schools are dressed for Halloween after all.

YES!!! I totally agree with this!
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insupport
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ILIkeLI
Nov 3 2006, 09:20 AM
insupport
Nov 3 2006, 09:00 AM
There are some children that will not ever learn.  At middle school there are some children that are in the planning room nearly everyday.

That is a dangerous and faulty assumption that shortchanges a whole group of children. All children are capable of learning. That is the foundation is NCLB. And while many of us have issues with parts of this law, I for one firmly belief in it's guiding principle that all children are capble of learning and that it isn't acceptable to set aside difficult kids, claiming they are "unteachable/unreachable" That is exactly how many have been left behind to flounder.
If the same kids are in the planning room everyday that says much more about the attempts to reach them than it does about the kids or their homes. The efforts to remediate their behavior are quite obviously not working. I have worked in institutional settings with kids where we expected and got respect/cooperation. It's not difficult. It may require creativity and extra effort but it can be done. Generally, positive reinforcers work much better than punishment in motivating behavior. Although I do understand and agree with consequences...logical and natural consequences.

In terms of learning I was referring to behavior not academics. The planning room was designed to help reach kids to change their behaviors. Perhaps some behaviors continue because there is no support from parents. Is the better alternative to continue to allow these children to be in the classroom to constantly interrupt the learning process for the rest of the kids, or to remove them from school or to send them to a school designed for "behavior "problems? I don't know what the answer is. I agree that no child should be forgotten but there also must be consequences for not following the rules. If there are no consequences then school becomes chaos and nobody learns anything. As far as losing recess for not completing homework, well it is under the child's and parents control. If they do the homework then it isn't an issue. I guess I would rather my children learn this in 5th or 6th grade then in middle school or highschool. By completing homework they can also learn to take pride in their work and in being responsible.
The earlier they do this the more successful they will be in middle school and high school. I think this whole issue can be viewed from a different angle. If the schools didn't care about the kids then they wouldn't care if homework was done and there would be no consequences. However they do care and therefore are trying to get kids in the habit of completing homework. Unfortunately there are some school systems that are just happy that kids show up. I don't want that for my kids.
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Hasn't missing recess always been used as a punishment when necessary? What other privilege can the teacher take away when she needs to discipline a student or the whole class for bad behavior or unfinished work? It is a shame that if lunch recess is taken away then they miss their only chance to get out and play, but isn't that what punishment is all about? I'm not talking about the kids who have 3 hours of homework they can't finish, or kids who are becoming a discipline problem and are in detention all the time--these are different scenarios and a conversation with the teacher is warranted. But missing recess occasionally as a punishment never hurt anyone.

As far as homework is concerned, are there really kids who have had NO homework since Sept?? I would think all teachers would have assigned something to be done at home: studying for a test, extra reading, worksheets, etc. I think getting the kids in the habit of doing homework is a good thing. My son didn't have much homework last year, so doing homework this year has been a bit of a challenge. Don't they need to prepare for the extra homework they will continue to get as they progress through school?

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CKlockner
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loyaltolivonia
Nov 3 2006, 10:50 AM
Mrs.M
Nov 3 2006, 10:22 AM
But before people jump on this post..The topic began as detention in the 5/6 schools.  Referring to the 5/6 as upper elementary is a mask, unmasked, it is a pre middle school.  It seems the 5/6 schools are dressed for Halloween after all.

YES!!! I totally agree with this!

This is something those of us with kids in the 5/6 schools have quickly come to realize.
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ILIkeLI
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PO'D Resident
Nov 3 2006, 11:06 AM
Hasn't missing recess always been used as a punishment when necessary? What other privilege can the teacher take away when she needs to discipline a student or the whole class for bad behavior or unfinished work? It is a shame that if lunch recess is taken away then they miss their only chance to get out and play, but isn't that what punishment is all about? I'm not talking about the kids who have 3 hours of homework they can't finish, or kids who are becoming a discipline problem and are in detention all the time--these are different scenarios and a conversation with the teacher is warranted. But missing recess occasionally as a punishment never hurt anyone.

As far as homework is concerned, are there really kids who have had NO homework since Sept?? I would think all teachers would have assigned something to be done at home: studying for a test, extra reading, worksheets, etc. I think getting the kids in the habit of doing homework is a good thing. My son didn't have much homework last year, so doing homework this year has been a bit of a challenge. Don't they need to prepare for the extra homework they will continue to get as they progress through school?

I agree with you as recess being used as a negative consequence for unfinished homework, as long as the homework isn't regularly very lengthy. It is important to help kids develop a sense of responsibility. I do believe that students with behavior problems are a different scenario and need to be handled in alternative ways. I think that the threat of punishment doesn't always work for those types of problems. If they did, we would certainly have more space in our jails.
It seems that the biggest concern is that these "punishments" are being used inconsistently and for a wide variety of reasons depending on which school your child attends and which teacher they have. Again, inconsistencies and inequality, a common theme in LPS.
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SJC
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I think the real problem here is with the word "detention". That has a pretty heavy connotation of wrong-doing. I have known that some kids get held back from 2nd recess in the lower elementary schools when they don't get their work done. I don't think it's a big deal. My son tends to over think writing assignments and ends up not finishing them on time. He shouldn't have to sit next to the kid who pulled the fire alarm while he's finishing his assignment.

I question the inconsistencies between same grade teachers at the same school. If not for this forum I probably wouldn't know that there were inconsistencies between the schools. It's only an issue when you feel like your student is being short changed. I feel that way now about one of my kids now unfortunately. I think this "teacher collaboration" issue was just spin doctoring as opposed to a real benefit. Although the opportunity is there I don't think anything was done to encourage or ensure that it is taking place.

My kids don't get much homework either. When they don't get any, I make up my own homework and give it to them. I feel like homework is my best avenue to stay closely involved with their educations.
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Raven
3rd Grade
SJC
Nov 3 2006, 12:58 PM
I think the real problem here is with the word "detention". 

Would we be talking about this if they called it "Study Hall"?
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Mrs.M
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You certainly have conjured up memories from years ago. Study Hall was a 'subject' or hour, it was a legitmate time to do your homework. Planning room is for detention..
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cmic
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Mrs.M
Nov 3 2006, 11:22 AM
Little kids, little problems, Big kids, big problems

My two cents - once a child gets into the habit of not completeing homework they tend to continue that habit. Teachers and schools cannot be expected to be the only ones working toward your child's education. There has to be support from home otherwise you are enabling, actually disabling, your child.

We all know there are varying degrees of teachers and a variety of teaching strategies and a lack thereof. My children and I have been fortunate to not have had any teacher that gave 30 minutes of homework per subject each day in the elementary level (K-6). That's 28 years worth of teachers. Even at the middle school level that amount of homework was non existent. I would think even at the high school level, half of the teachers give the student time to start on their homework.

Detention in high school is for the most part for behavioral problems, including attendance, specifially tardiness - not missing homework issues.

But before people jump on this post..The topic began as detention in the 5/6 schools. Referring to the 5/6 as upper elementary is a mask, unmasked, it is a pre middle school. It seems the 5/6 schools are dressed for Halloween after all.

I agree. :)
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plmask
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SJC
Nov 3 2006, 12:58 PM
If not for this forum I probably wouldn't I think this "teacher collaboration" issue was just spin doctoring as opposed to a real benefit. Although the opportunity is there I don't think anything was done to encourage or ensure that it is taking place.


Teacher collaboration is strongly encouraged at my school. The principal encourages, supports, and does whatever possible to ensure that professional teacher collaboration is taking place at our school.
Whether is was mentioned as "spin doctoring" or not, I don't know. I do know that it is taking place and is supported by our administration. The teachers also give up lunches and breaks and stay after school to accomplish this together.
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mikefromholland
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plmask
Nov 3 2006, 08:01 PM
SJC
Nov 3 2006, 12:58 PM
If not for this forum I probably wouldn't  I think this "teacher collaboration" issue was just spin doctoring as opposed to a real benefit.  Although the opportunity is there I don't think anything was done to encourage or ensure that it is taking place. 


Teacher collaboration is strongly encouraged at my school. The principal encourages, supports, and does whatever possible to ensure that professional teacher collaboration is taking place at our school.
Whether is was mentioned as "spin doctoring" or not, I don't know. I do know that it is taking place and is supported by our administration. The teachers also give up lunches and breaks and stay after school to accomplish this together.

I will begin by stating that I am not an expert in K-12 education.

Having said that, my opinion is that the increased opportunities for "teacher collaboration" in systems like Holland's focus schools and Livonia's LI are of little real value in improving student educational outcomes.

My evidence for this opinion is the many research studies cited by CFLF and participants on this forum. If increased teacher collaboration in large schools with narrow grade levels resulted in a measureable improvement in student outcomes, then the studies would show that those types of schools had better outcomes. In fact, the studies show the opposite. The characteristics of schools that are associated with improved educational outcomes are small school size and large grade spans (think K-8 or K-6 not Holland focus schools K-1 or Livonia LI K-4). And these kinds of schools are exactly the places where LESS opportunity for teacher collaboration occurs.

In my opinion, teacher collaboration was used as a "red herring" in Holland to convince parents that the focus schools, though inconvenient, would be better for their children.

Please note that I'm not saying teacher collaboration is a bad thing. It is a good thing that can lead to educational improvement. But there are some problems with the logic when teacher collaboration is used to justify systems like Holland's focus schools and Livonia's LI. The other negative side effects from these systems -- disconnect of families from schools, disruption of school community, negative effects of "large organizations" as discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's The Tipping Point) -- all these factors overwhelm the positive contributions of increased teacher collaboration. The result is educational declines instead of improvements.

In 2006, in places where schools are not succeeding with students, it is unlikely that the problem is lack of teacher collaboration. In fact, the problem is more likely related to the original subject of this thread -- student behavior. Are Detroit's schools failing because of lack of teacher collaboration? Is there more teacher collaboration in Farmington Hills or Bloomfield or Livonia than in Detroit?

My opinion is that the root cause of the failure of our educational system, today in 2006, is a sociological problem NOT an educational problem. And that is why NCLB (No Child Left Behind) which attacks the problem strictly from an educational standpoint (let children transfer out of so-called "failing schools," give them extra tutoring, reassign the school staff, close the schools down) is totally misguided and actually disrupting the few social systems that the minority of successful kids in these schools have.

But that's another issue -- let's start an NCLB thread and we can have some discussions there...
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SJC
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mikefromholland
Nov 4 2006, 12:31 AM
In my opinion, teacher collaboration was used as a "red herring" in Holland to convince parents that the focus schools, though inconvenient, would be better for their children.
I'm not sure I'd define it as a red herring in our case since it was not intended to distract us from other issues. I just think it was a hollow benefit that was stacked on to their list of positives that they never intended to initiate or support. I guess the LI does present the opportunity for enhanced collaboration since more same-grade teachers are in the same building. But I'm guessing that, like Holland, we won't see anything tangible arise from that benefit.

plmask
Nov 3 2006, 08:01 PM
Whether it was mentioned as "spin doctoring" or not, I don't know.  I do know that it is taking place and is supported by our administration.  The teachers also give up lunches and breaks and stay after school to accomplish this together.
I know some teachers give up lunches and breaks at time to work with students who need extra help. But if the teachers at your school choose to meet on lunch hour I wouldn't say that’s giving up anything. They are making an accommodation for those teachers who refuse to collaborate after the kids go home. I really hope that our principal is encouraging collaboration but I don’t see any evidence of that at our school. On the contrary, when I hear what some of the other same-grade teachers are doing we feel like one of our sons is getting gypped. Fortunately, our other son has a teacher that makes other parents feel like their kids are getting gypped. It's not their style or their approach. It's the actual stuff that the kids are doing.
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cmic
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Teacher collaboration can be very beneficial especially if you are a new teacher because it helps to give you the direction that you need. I do think that as teachers we generally don't use collaboration time wisely. The most effective collaboration I have ever been apart of has been this year and the reason is due to the fact that we bring data to every meeting and it drives our instruction. For instance, when kids take tests as a teacher you can move on after the unit is over or we can graph the scores, find out which test questions the kids had the most trouble on and go back and teach new lessons to help them be succesful on the areas that are weak. Or we can give the same test in all 3 sections/rooms, analyze the data and compare classroom scores. In that way we are able to see where each of us as teachers were weak and had trouble getting a particular concept apart. Then we can benefit from the teacher that her kids did well and we can learn from her how she approached that section and go back and re-teach it to the children. It is a great opportunity for growth as a teacher and as a student. The second example is what I believe is most effective for teachers and students. In order to do that though you need to have the common planning time for scheduling so that you will have common assessments that you can learn from and drive instruction with the results from the data.

Hope this helps. ;)
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plmask
Principal
SJC
Nov 4 2006, 08:16 AM
QUOTE]I know some teachers give up lunches and breaks at time to work with students who need extra help. But if the teachers at your school choose to meet on lunch hour I wouldn't say that’s giving up anything.

Yes these same teachers also use their release time to work with students. Please don't belittle what we're trying to accomplish with our collaboration. You stated that you doubted it was going on, I wanted to clear up that is was happening, at least at my school. Teachers are trying to make the best of a difficult situation. There are many angry people out there and some of that anger is directed at us. We deal with it everyday so I am a little sensitive to your comments that we aren't "giving up anything".
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mikefromholland
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cmic
Nov 4 2006, 09:26 AM
Teacher collaboration can  be very beneficial especially if you are a new teacher because it helps to give you the direction that you need.  I do think that as teachers we generally don't use collaboration time wisely.  The most effective collaboration I have ever been apart of has been this year and the reason is due to the fact that we bring data to every meeting and it drives our instruction.  For instance, when kids take tests as a teacher you can move on after the unit is over or we can graph the scores, find out which test questions the kids had the most trouble on and go back and teach new lessons to help them be succesful on the areas that are weak.  Or we can give the same test in all 3 sections/rooms, analyze the data and compare classroom scores.  In that way we are able to see where each of us as teachers were weak and had trouble getting a particular concept apart.  Then we can benefit from the teacher that her kids did well and we can learn from her how she approached that section and go back and re-teach it to the children.  It is a great opportunity for growth as a teacher and as a student.  The second example is what I believe is most effective for teachers and students.  In order to do that though you need to have the common planning time for scheduling so that you will have common assessments that you can learn from and drive instruction with the results from the data.

Hope this helps. ;)

And I totally agree with you cmic that collaboration itself is likely a be a good thing. My point was that increasing school sizes, narrowing grade levels in schools, etc. introduce negative side effects that apparently overwhelm the positive effect of increased collaboration. Otherwise the research data would show that schools with such characteristics had better educational outcomes when in fact the data show the opposite.

I bolded something in your original comment because it illustrates another example of misattributing a valid improvement to a school reorganization (like the LI or Holland's focus schools) when the improvement could have been made under the old system (Livonia's K-6 schools or Holland's K-5 schools). You didn't say "the reason is due to the fact that in the post-LI schools we have more teachers of the same grade level together." You gave the real reason -- you use data to drive your instruction. I commend the teachers and administrators who have implemented such an approach -- but it could have been implemented under the old system and resulted in similar improvements.

I have nothing but praise for the teachers who are constantly being forced to reinvent what they do. Sometimes this is due to valid findings from educational research and real improvement results. Other times it is due to less robust research which gets picked up as an educational fad, or the whim of an administration or school board, and it serves only to make your jobs more difficult.
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