Board of Education Meeting

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Board of Education Meeting; March 6, 2006 Your thoughts
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 5 2006, 11:27 AM (7,541 Views)
gr1	Mar 8 2006, 03:46 PM Post #121
Principal Posts: 453 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: November 8, 2005	Quote: I also do not understand those "special needs" of 5th and 6th graders. So many of us, myself included, were products of this school system or others that had a K-6 elementary configuration. Why all of the sudden are there special needs for 5th and 6th graders? Have we done a bad job with them up until now? Are we saying that we have not been meeting those needs all along over the past 40 or more years? NMSA Research Summary Young Adolescents' Developmental Needs (1996) An updated version of this research summary is forthcoming Question: What are the specialized needs of young adolescents ages 10- 15? (i.e. Why develop curricula and educational programs tailored to these unique needs?) Seven key developmental needs The uniqueness of the phase of early adolescence stems from a variety of developmental needs, variations in the maturation rate, and complexity due to their simultaneous occurrence. Seven key developmental needs (Scales, 1991) characterize early adolescence: positive social interaction with adults and peers structure and clear limits physical activity creative expression competence and achievement meaningful participation in families, school communities, opportunities for self-definition Expressed another way, "Every child wants to believe in himself or herself as a successful person; every youngster wants to be liked and respected; every youngster wants physical exercises and freedom to move; and youngsters want life to be just" (Stevenson, 1992). Not meeting these needs often results in alienation from school, loss of general self-esteem and a sense of belonging, and destructive methods of coping, including delinquency and drugs. Why develop educational programs to meet these needs? Growing numbers of at-risk students Growing numbers of at-risk adolescents and recognition of early adolescence as the last primary bulwark of intervention have focused attention on developmentally appropriate education and the effect of school setting on adolescent development. Scales (1991) noted that about 80% of young people do not experience a stressful adolescence. Yet, a growing number of these young people are "at risk of being unprepared and unsuccessful in the modern social and economic world" (p.3). These growing numbers of at risk students accentuate the importance of helping young adolescents form coping strategies, a positive self-esteem, and a social support system. Decline in self-esteem and self competence Wigfield & Eccles (1994) found a decline in young adolescents' self-esteem, values towards school subjects, and competency beliefs in the transition from an elementary sixth grade setting to a departmentalized junior high setting. Of special concern was the negative change in competency beliefs which may indicate the potential for some young adolescents being at risk for school failure. A growing body of research addresses young women and minority students achieving a sense of identity. Researchers noted early maturing females score lower on measures of self-esteem than do early maturing males, indicating the need for addressing gender role socialization at the time when young women discover the disparity in power and prestige associated with life options for males and females (Gilligan et al., 1989; Offer et al., 1988; Orenstein, 1994). When conflicting messages from the majority culture are particularly confusing to minority youth, addressing ethnic issues is another area of importance in helping all students develop a sense of identity (Phinney, 1989). Inappropriate school environments Causes of decline in beliefs, values, and self-esteem have been explained in part by school settings not meeting the developmental needs of young adolescents (Wigfield & Eccles, 1994). On the one hand, young adolescents possess an increasing desire for autonomy, a growing orientation to peers, a concern about social acceptance, an increased need to resolve identity issues, and an increased tendency for an egocentric orientation. On the other hand, these attributes are at odds with traditional junior high settings of larger and less personable schools, less positive teachers student relationships, stricter assessment measures, more competitive and controlled environments, fewer opportunities for decision-making, choice, and self-management, with more whole class practices, and more social/ability comparison. Wigfield and Eccles (1994) concluded, "As schools change in ways that may better match early adolescents' developing characteristics, perhaps the declines in adolescents' achievement beliefs and values observed... will diminish" (p. 133). Programs which meet developmental needs Middle school programs and practices address developmental needs through a variety of activities and strategies. As young adolescents have an orientation toward peers and a concern about social acceptance, work in small groups and advisory programs promote opportunities for interaction with peers and adults. Task-focused strategies divert attention from social and ability comparison to task completion and achievement (Urdan, Midgley, Wood, 1995). Interdisciplinary team organization fosters feelings of belonging to a group of 100-140 fellow students, while advisory groups allow time and a small group for discussion of issues. Achievement and competence is achieved through authentic assessment based on personal goals, progress, and improvement, challenging intellectual material focused on relevant problems and issues, and with recognition by peers and adults. The increase in the desire for autonomy and resolving identity issues can be addressed through learning strategies involving choice, a curriculum based on social and individual interests (Beane, 1990), opportunities for exploration of topics in exploratory programs, and the prevalence of a safe environment for experimentation. Non-competitive intramurals, flexible classroom structures, and hands-on activities incorporate the need for physical activity and movement. Service projects and project-based learning strategies capitalize upon young adolescents' creative expression and need for meaningful participation and experimentation with aspects of identity within a community, including the need for ethnic expressions of identity. Such a curriculum combines the needs of young adolescence with societal expectations and forces to provide learning experiences which promote healthy self-images and relationships, academic stimulation and challenge, and moral and physical development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related Articles Summary of Young Adolescents' Developmental Needs, from "Creating a Developmental Framework: The Positive Possibilities of Young Adolescents," in A Portrait of Young Adolescents in the 1990s, by P. Scales. Minneapolis, MN: Search Institute Center for Early Adolescence. "Tasks of Adolescence" by R. Simmons and D. Blyth, 1987, in the introduction to Moving Into Adolescence. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. "Meeting the Developmental Needs of Adolescents," by F. Loda (January, 1995) in Principal, 74(3). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- References Beane, J. (1990). A middle school curriculum: From rhetoric to reality. Columbus, OH: National Middle School Association. Beane J., & Lipka, R. (1987). When the kids come first: Enhancing self-esteem. Columbus, OH: National Middle School Association. Gilligan, C., Lyons, N. P., & Hanmer, T. J. (1989). Making connections: The relational worlds of adolescent girls at Emma Willard School. Troy, N.Y: Emma Willard School. Offer, D., et al., (1988). The teenage world: Adolescents' self-image in ten countries. New York: Plenum Medical Books. Orenstein, P. (1994). Schoolgirls: Young women, self-esteem, and the confidence gap. New York: Doubleday. Phinney, J. S. (1989). Stages of ethnic identity development in minority group adolescents. Journal of Early Adolescence, 9, 34-39. Scales, P.C. (1991). A Portrait of Young Adolescents in the 1990s: Implications for promoting healthy growth and development. Minneapolis, MN: Search Institute/Center for Early Adolescence. Stevenson, C. (1992). Teaching ten to fourteen year olds. White Plains, NY: Longman Urdan, T., Midgley, C., & Wood, S. (1995). Special issues in reforming middle level schools. Journal of Early Adolescence, 5(1), 9-37. Wigfield, A., & Eccles, J. (1994). Children's competence beliefs, achievement values, and general self-esteem: Change across elementary and middle school. Journal of Early Adolescence, 14(2), 107-138



Cindi	Mar 8 2006, 04:25 PM Post #122
Principal Posts: 460 Group: Members Member #10 Joined: October 24, 2005	gr1 Mar 8 2006, 03:46 PM Quote: I also do not understand those "special needs" of 5th and 6th graders. So many of us, myself included, were products of this school system or others that had a K-6 elementary configuration. Why all of the sudden are there special needs for 5th and 6th graders? Have we done a bad job with them up until now? Are we saying that we have not been meeting those needs all along over the past 40 or more years? NMSA Research Summary Young Adolescents' Developmental Needs (1996) An updated version of this research summary is forthcoming Question: What are the specialized needs of young adolescents ages 10- 15? (i.e. Why develop curricula and educational programs tailored to these unique needs?) Seven key developmental needs The uniqueness of the phase of early adolescence stems from a variety of developmental needs, variations in the maturation rate, and complexity due to their simultaneous occurrence. Seven key developmental needs (Scales, 1991) characterize early adolescence: positive social interaction with adults and peers structure and clear limits physical activity creative expression competence and achievement meaningful participation in families, school communities, opportunities for self-definition Expressed another way, "Every child wants to believe in himself or herself as a successful person; every youngster wants to be liked and respected; every youngster wants physical exercises and freedom to move; and youngsters want life to be just" (Stevenson, 1992). Not meeting these needs often results in alienation from school, loss of general self-esteem and a sense of belonging, and destructive methods of coping, including delinquency and drugs. Why develop educational programs to meet these needs? Growing numbers of at-risk students Growing numbers of at-risk adolescents and recognition of early adolescence as the last primary bulwark of intervention have focused attention on developmentally appropriate education and the effect of school setting on adolescent development. Scales (1991) noted that about 80% of young people do not experience a stressful adolescence. Yet, a growing number of these young people are "at risk of being unprepared and unsuccessful in the modern social and economic world" (p.3). These growing numbers of at risk students accentuate the importance of helping young adolescents form coping strategies, a positive self-esteem, and a social support system. Decline in self-esteem and self competence Wigfield & Eccles (1994) found a decline in young adolescents' self-esteem, values towards school subjects, and competency beliefs in the transition from an elementary sixth grade setting to a departmentalized junior high setting. Of special concern was the negative change in competency beliefs which may indicate the potential for some young adolescents being at risk for school failure. A growing body of research addresses young women and minority students achieving a sense of identity. Researchers noted early maturing females score lower on measures of self-esteem than do early maturing males, indicating the need for addressing gender role socialization at the time when young women discover the disparity in power and prestige associated with life options for males and females (Gilligan et al., 1989; Offer et al., 1988; Orenstein, 1994). When conflicting messages from the majority culture are particularly confusing to minority youth, addressing ethnic issues is another area of importance in helping all students develop a sense of identity (Phinney, 1989). Inappropriate school environments Causes of decline in beliefs, values, and self-esteem have been explained in part by school settings not meeting the developmental needs of young adolescents (Wigfield & Eccles, 1994). On the one hand, young adolescents possess an increasing desire for autonomy, a growing orientation to peers, a concern about social acceptance, an increased need to resolve identity issues, and an increased tendency for an egocentric orientation. On the other hand, these attributes are at odds with traditional junior high settings of larger and less personable schools, less positive teachers student relationships, stricter assessment measures, more competitive and controlled environments, fewer opportunities for decision-making, choice, and self-management, with more whole class practices, and more social/ability comparison. Wigfield and Eccles (1994) concluded, "As schools change in ways that may better match early adolescents' developing characteristics, perhaps the declines in adolescents' achievement beliefs and values observed... will diminish" (p. 133). Programs which meet developmental needs Middle school programs and practices address developmental needs through a variety of activities and strategies. As young adolescents have an orientation toward peers and a concern about social acceptance, work in small groups and advisory programs promote opportunities for interaction with peers and adults. Task-focused strategies divert attention from social and ability comparison to task completion and achievement (Urdan, Midgley, Wood, 1995). Interdisciplinary team organization fosters feelings of belonging to a group of 100-140 fellow students, while advisory groups allow time and a small group for discussion of issues. Achievement and competence is achieved through authentic assessment based on personal goals, progress, and improvement, challenging intellectual material focused on relevant problems and issues, and with recognition by peers and adults. The increase in the desire for autonomy and resolving identity issues can be addressed through learning strategies involving choice, a curriculum based on social and individual interests (Beane, 1990), opportunities for exploration of topics in exploratory programs, and the prevalence of a safe environment for experimentation. Non-competitive intramurals, flexible classroom structures, and hands-on activities incorporate the need for physical activity and movement. Service projects and project-based learning strategies capitalize upon young adolescents' creative expression and need for meaningful participation and experimentation with aspects of identity within a community, including the need for ethnic expressions of identity. Such a curriculum combines the needs of young adolescence with societal expectations and forces to provide learning experiences which promote healthy self-images and relationships, academic stimulation and challenge, and moral and physical development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related Articles Summary of Young Adolescents' Developmental Needs, from "Creating a Developmental Framework: The Positive Possibilities of Young Adolescents," in A Portrait of Young Adolescents in the 1990s, by P. Scales. Minneapolis, MN: Search Institute Center for Early Adolescence. "Tasks of Adolescence" by R. Simmons and D. Blyth, 1987, in the introduction to Moving Into Adolescence. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. "Meeting the Developmental Needs of Adolescents," by F. Loda (January, 1995) in Principal, 74(3). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- References Beane, J. (1990). A middle school curriculum: From rhetoric to reality. Columbus, OH: National Middle School Association. Beane J., & Lipka, R. (1987). When the kids come first: Enhancing self-esteem. Columbus, OH: National Middle School Association. Gilligan, C., Lyons, N. P., & Hanmer, T. J. (1989). Making connections: The relational worlds of adolescent girls at Emma Willard School. Troy, N.Y: Emma Willard School. Offer, D., et al., (1988). The teenage world: Adolescents' self-image in ten countries. New York: Plenum Medical Books. Orenstein, P. (1994). Schoolgirls: Young women, self-esteem, and the confidence gap. New York: Doubleday. Phinney, J. S. (1989). Stages of ethnic identity development in minority group adolescents. Journal of Early Adolescence, 9, 34-39. Scales, P.C. (1991). A Portrait of Young Adolescents in the 1990s: Implications for promoting healthy growth and development. Minneapolis, MN: Search Institute/Center for Early Adolescence. Stevenson, C. (1992). Teaching ten to fourteen year olds. White Plains, NY: Longman Urdan, T., Midgley, C., & Wood, S. (1995). Special issues in reforming middle level schools. Journal of Early Adolescence, 5(1), 9-37. Wigfield, A., & Eccles, J. (1994). Children's competence beliefs, achievement values, and general self-esteem: Change across elementary and middle school. Journal of Early Adolescence, 14(2), 107-138 Thank you for the reference. This is the first I have read in regards to "special needs for 5th and 6th graders." Have you read anything more current? At the top it indicates an updated version of this research is forthcoming. I have tried to keep any of my research limited to 2000 and newer.



NFarquharson	Mar 8 2006, 05:15 PM Post #123
Principal Posts: 4,311 Group: Members Member #103 Joined: November 9, 2005	Question: Is there any reason these needs cannot be addressed in a K-6 smaller elementary school? This article specifically refers to large school size in a rather negative light: "Inappropriate school environments Causes of decline in beliefs, values, and self-esteem have been explained in part by school settings not meeting the developmental needs of young adolescents (Wigfield & Eccles, 1994). On the one hand, young adolescents possess an increasing desire for autonomy, a growing orientation to peers, a concern about social acceptance, an increased need to resolve identity issues, and an increased tendency for an egocentric orientation. On the other hand, these attributes are at odds with traditional junior high settings of larger and less personable schools, less positive teachers student relationships, stricter assessment measures, more competitive and controlled environments, fewer opportunities for decision-making, choice, and self-management, with more whole class practices, and more social/ability comparison." I appreciate the article about the needs of this age group, but I still don't see any logical connection from this article to "therefore we need to put them all together in a very large school." Any ideas?



ForMySons	Mar 8 2006, 09:47 PM Post #124
Principal Posts: 205 Group: Members Member #205 Joined: December 8, 2005	NFarquharson Mar 8 2006, 05:15 PM Question: Is there any reason these needs cannot be addressed in a K-6 smaller elementary school? This article specifically refers to large school size in a rather negative light: "Inappropriate school environments Causes of decline in beliefs, values, and self-esteem have been explained in part by school settings not meeting the developmental needs of young adolescents (Wigfield & Eccles, 1994). On the one hand, young adolescents possess an increasing desire for autonomy, a growing orientation to peers, a concern about social acceptance, an increased need to resolve identity issues, and an increased tendency for an egocentric orientation. On the other hand, these attributes are at odds with traditional junior high settings of larger and less personable schools, less positive teachers student relationships, stricter assessment measures, more competitive and controlled environments, fewer opportunities for decision-making, choice, and self-management, with more whole class practices, and more social/ability comparison." I appreciate the article about the needs of this age group, but I still don't see any logical connection from this article to "therefore we need to put them all together in a very large school." Any ideas? I have 7th grade boy. At times he seems to flourish at middle school and seems to be growing more independant (and proud of being more independant). At other times he tells me that he wishes he was back in elementary school where everyone knows him and all of the teachers know him. I find this is an age full of contradiction and the needs probably change daily. I have not bought into the the large upper elementary schools, but I do think 11 and 12 year olds do have specific needs. That being said, doesn't every age group have special needs?



Jill	Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM Post #125
Principal Posts: 36 Group: Members Member #319 Joined: February 25, 2006	ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward?



Livonia Voter	Mar 8 2006, 10:06 PM Post #126
Principal Posts: 1,256 Group: Members Member #165 Joined: November 29, 2005	Jill Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward? Hi Jill, I certinly am interested in the views of teachers on Legacy, and I hate what this process is doing to the community. However, I have yet to hear anything that would bring me back to supporting it. Frankly, the only thing I had a problem with in the beginning was the boundry changes. But the more I saw, the worse I felt. The board just won't be up front with us. They refuse answer questions. I am interested though in your thoughts. Do you support Legacy, and if so why? Do you think we are just a bunch of mean people? Please remember that it is easy "shoot from the hip" when typing away on a computer, no matter what your position on an issue is.



Grant1	Mar 8 2006, 10:10 PM Post #127
We have just begun to fight! Posts: 3,167 Group: Members Member #117 Joined: November 14, 2005	Jill Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward? Because we were hearing much differently from our childrens teachers in contrast to those ( teachers, non-teachers, administration, pta, who ever they may have been? ) who may have spoken at the last board meeting.



ForMySons	Mar 8 2006, 10:14 PM Post #128
Principal Posts: 205 Group: Members Member #205 Joined: December 8, 2005	Jill Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward? I feel like your post was unfair. Yes, I made the comment you quoted, but I was not the one who made the other comments. I don't share the beliefs of all of the posters and they don't share all of mine. I like to hear opposite points of view--I think it is healthy. I would love to see someone who is in favor of LI and currently has children speak up at the board meetings. Since LI affects those with school age children the most, I am surprised that there are not many statements from this group. I am interested in hearing their point of view. I have no issues with teachers speaking, if both sides could be truly have their say. Many teachers seem to be willing to speak against LI in private, but they are afraid to voice any opposition and put their job in peril.



Jill	Mar 8 2006, 10:56 PM Post #129
Principal Posts: 36 Group: Members Member #319 Joined: February 25, 2006	Livonia Voter Mar 8 2006, 10:06 PM Hi Jill, I certinly am interested in the views of teachers on Legacy, and I hate what this process is doing to the community. However, I have yet to hear anything that would bring me back to supporting it. Frankly, the only thing I had a problem with in the beginning was the boundry changes. But the more I saw, the worse I felt. The board just won't be up front with us. They refuse answer questions. I am interested though in your thoughts. Do you support Legacy, and if so why? Do you think we are just a bunch of mean people? Please remember that it is easy "shoot from the hip" when typing away on a computer, no matter what your position on an issue is. If you are truly interested in the thoughts of a supporter, here are some: I'm glad that you, too, are interested in what the teachers have to say. I don't base my decisions based ONLY on that, but they are the ones in the trenches. They know about the cuts have been made, because they're the ones living with them in most cases, I think. I also think that their opinion on how this may affect their students is important. I would think that teaching experience and training would give them some insight into this subject that may be helpful to parents. I also think that the views that they expressed on class size are important. If the schools all stay open, will the cuts be made to teachers instead, making class sizes bigger? This is unacceptable to me. That being said, I would also be very interested in the opinions of teachers who are against the LI. I'm not sure that they should be afraid of speaking publicly, as some on this forum have suggested. They are in a union, have seniority and, except for the newest hires, tenure. I don't believe the BOE could pink slip a teacher for having an opinion. I agree with you about the boundary issues. They are tough. They don't affect my children, so obviously I don't understand it in the same way that you do. I especially empathize with the Roosevelt parents whose 5-6 kids won't be able to attend Riley, when they can practically see it from their doorstep. I disagree with you about the BOE not being up front. I've watched or attended just about every BOE meeting since the LI came out, and many before that. It's frustrating to me when opposers ask questions that already HAVE been answered, and this seems to happen frequently. I don't know if people just don't understand the answers (and I am NOT implying that anyone is "stupid" -- some of the financial and legal issues truly are difficult to understand), didn't hear the answers, or are just trying to keep stirring the pot. Throughout this process, I've asked questions of two BOE members that HAVE been answered. Do I think that you are just a bunch of mean people? Heck, no. Some of my best friends are opposers and I still love 'em! I think that MOST of you express opinions that are well researched and thought out. It's obvious that you have what you feel is in the best interest of your children at heart. Who could fault you for that? That being said, there are some very negative people out there as well. I've watched this site since I first heard of it shortly after it was publicized, but I've been apprehensive to post because it does seem that positive posters sometimes get chewed to bits. I do, however, think that the tactics of some supporters are out of line. I was content to keep my opinions to myself until I saw Mr. Wojcak (sp?) speak at the BOE meetings. I feel that he went way too far, and I hope that even some opposers can see that? Wanting to see Liepa's financial info? Digging up "dirt" about his race horse farm? Personally, I couldn't care less about what Liepa does with his own money on his own time. Some of my friends feel the same way. It was a real turn off, and I don't think it helps your cause at all. And yes, some supporters have been an embarassment at well. People on BOTH sides of the issue who behave like that are not helping anyone. I think it's obvious that I do support the LI. I, too, have put much thought into this issue and have discussed it with many people: my children, teachers, my kids' principal, 2 BOE members, and some supporters and opposers. I don't think it's the ideal plan, by any means. I think we ALL agree that something has be done/cut, and this is something I can live with. My gut feeling is that my kids will be fine. I understand that you may feel differently about your kids, and I respect that. Do I have a mountain of research to support my position? No. I don't have the time or inclination to do a ton of research, and quite frankly, it's not that important to me. It's really not going to make me support the LI any more or any less (and yes, I have looked at some of the research that's posted at CFLF). I think that research can be presented to support or negate a cause simply by the parts of it that are quoted anyway. There are many people in my life who I trust to care for myself and my kids in one form or another, and I don't require research from them. They're professionals. I have to assume that they know their field. Naive? Maybe, but I'm comfortable with it. Thank you for asking my opinion. I've been reading yours and considering them for quite some time. I hope you'll respect my opinions, too.



Jill	Mar 8 2006, 11:06 PM Post #130
Principal Posts: 36 Group: Members Member #319 Joined: February 25, 2006	ForMySons Mar 8 2006, 10:14 PM Jill Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward? I feel like your post was unfair. Yes, I made the comment you quoted, but I was not the one who made the other comments. I don't share the beliefs of all of the posters and they don't share all of mine. I like to hear opposite points of view--I think it is healthy. I would love to see someone who is in favor of LI and currently has children speak up at the board meetings. Since LI affects those with school age children the most, I am surprised that there are not many statements from this group. I am interested in hearing their point of view. I have no issues with teachers speaking, if both sides could be truly have their say. Many teachers seem to be willing to speak against LI in private, but they are afraid to voice any opposition and put their job in peril. I'm sorry if my post seemed unfair. As I stated in my post, "a couple of months ago, people on this forum" made statements about wanting teachers to step up. I did not mean to suggest that you were the person making those statements. And when I asked if "you" wanted only teachers who agreed with you to step forward, I meant a collective "you". I apologize for the unclear post.



cmic	Mar 9 2006, 06:43 AM Post #131
Principal Posts: 1,530 Group: Members Member #217 Joined: December 11, 2005	Jill Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward? Jill, In all fairness, the married couple with the signs don't have kids in the district anymore either. Also, as a teacher we buy into things that are new and want to change and expand our teaching and look at it professionally and get caught up in all of the positive, motivational things our administrators, who many times we respect highly, are selling us. I would personally have felt disloyal to a district that treated me well if I spoke out against it, even if I had concerns. I am wondering how many other teachers feel that way? I appreciate your enthusiasm, but enthusiasm doesn't change my mind. We have cold hard facts. As for people that are asking questions and not receiving answers... many times we aren't or we don't believe the answer. That would be my personal position. However, we have received answers as well... just not to the Hard Questions, in my opinion. Thank you though for sharing. I hope that you take my opinion for what it is worth... just my opinon. Take Care, Chris



cmic	Mar 9 2006, 06:46 AM Post #132
Principal Posts: 1,530 Group: Members Member #217 Joined: December 11, 2005	cmic Mar 9 2006, 06:43 AM Jill Mar 8 2006, 09:50 PM ForMySons Mar 6 2006, 11:11 PM We found it interesting that those who were in favor of LI either did not have kids currently attending Livonia Schools or were teachers in Livonia Schools. I find it interesting that many of the opposers seeking signatures are happily reporting how many senior citizen signatures they are getting. However, these people don't have "kids currently attending Livonia schools" either. I also find it interesting that a couple of months ago people on this forum were begging for teachers to step forward and share their thoughts. Apparently you only wanted teachers who agreed with you to step forward? Jill, In all fairness, the married couple with the signs don't have kids in the district anymore either. Also, as a teacher we buy into things that are new and want to change and expand our teaching and look at it professionally and get caught up in all of the positive, motivational things our administrators, who many times we respect highly, are selling us. I would personally have felt disloyal to a district that treated me well if I spoke out against it, even if I had concerns. I am wondering how many other teachers feel that way? I appreciate your enthusiasm, but enthusiasm doesn't change my mind. We have cold hard facts. As for people that are asking questions and not receiving answers... many times we aren't or we don't believe the answer. That would be my personal position. However, we have received answers as well... just not to the Hard Questions, in my opinion. Thank you though for sharing. I hope that you take my opinion for what it is worth... just my opinon. Take Care, Chris Also... Senior citizens have a lot of wisdom and can look at things from an unbiased approach. I am trying to understand your comment, because I can't believe you would be insinuating that a senior citizen's opinion isn't worth much because their kids are gone. I think what we are trying to say is that all types of people are happily signing the petitions. That is all. Please try not to make a mountain out of a mole hill.



gr1	Mar 9 2006, 07:12 AM Post #133
Principal Posts: 453 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: November 8, 2005	Quote: I would love to see someone who is in favor of LI and currently has children speak up at the board meetings. Since LI affects those with school age children the most, I am surprised that there are not many statements from this group. I am interested in hearing their point of view. You did hear that. I can think specifically of LPS two teachers who spoke up, both from a closing school. Both with children in LPS, one of them has a 5th grader. I think you will be hearing more public statements from other parents in the future.



Jill	Mar 9 2006, 07:13 AM Post #134
Principal Posts: 36 Group: Members Member #319 Joined: February 25, 2006	cmic Mar 9 2006, 06:46 AM Also... Senior citizens have a lot of wisdom and can look at things from an unbiased approach. I am trying to understand your comment, because I can't believe you would be insinuating that a senior citizen's opinion isn't worth much because their kids are gone. I think what we are trying to say is that all types of people are happily signing the petitions. That is all. Please try not to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm really not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. And I'm certainly not "insinuating that a senior citizen's opinion isn't worth much because their kids are gone". I agree that seniors' points of view are valid and should be sought out. My point is that "the married couple with the signs" who "don't have kids in the district anymore" also have valid points of view that shouldn't be devalued just because THEIR kids are grown. They're one in the same to me. A vote is a vote is a vote. Thanks for your comments.



gr1	Mar 9 2006, 07:18 AM Post #135
Principal Posts: 453 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: November 8, 2005	cmic, I also had a hard time following that whole conversation, however, this was my interpretation of it. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The couple who spoke at the Board Meeting no longer have kids in LPS. For this reason, their opinons were discounted to a degree because of it. I think Jill's point was that not so long ago, there was an outcry to these same citizens (empty nesters, seniors, "new" parents) to step up because even though they didn't have kids in LPS, it affects their city as well. I share Jill's frustratation with that.


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