Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Locked Topic
Start our own Charter School.
Topic Started: Dec 22 2005, 09:58 AM (5,865 Views)
Cindi
Member Avatar
Principal
Quote:
 
Cindi, I'm sorry that your knowledge of the special programs in LPS is lacking. You knew less than I thought you did. MSC and CAPA are only for high school students. ACAT is only K-6. MACAT is only for 7-8. I also would like to take back my results. I made a slight mistake. My guess is 4.2% without TMI and 4.9% with TMI.

Also, 2280/18,000 = 12.67%, not 1.26%. Redo your math.


Oops.......a typo! placed the decimal point in the wrong spot! I'm not a product of LPS obviously B) Any you're right, my children are not in these programs...........they also are not out of elementary yet. But they are "special children" because they are mine!!!! :)


Offline Profile Goto Top
 
mbossio
Principal
Okay Jimid.. I found an appropriate quote that opponents and propoents shoud find equally fitting.

War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~Bertrand Russell
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
xyz-321
Member Avatar
Principal
c3hull
Dec 23 2005, 10:09 PM
xyz-321, can you provide your calculations so that we can all have to numbers straight once and for all. I've heard different #'s for the past few months and if you can post them in detail, we can all agree on the final #'s. Thanks!

Total district enrollment: 17,171 Source: November 14 Demographics Committee presentation
MSC Spots: 30 * 4 grades = 120
CAPA Spots: 90 * 4 grades = 360
MACAT Spots: 120 * 2 grades = 240
Webster: 242 / 2 = 121 I divided by two because there are two programs (ACAT and TMI) in the school. This is the best estimate I can provide.

Percent of students in MSC, CAPA, MACAT, and ACAT:
(120+360+240+121)/17171 = 4.9%

Percent of students in MSC, CAPA, MACAT, ACAT, and TMI:
(120+360+240+242)/17171 = 5.6%

It is important to note that these numbers are not necessarily accurate. Enrollment in these programs fluxuates. Some of the programs are also not up to capacity. In the numbers in my previous post I dropped .7% to account for that, but now I think that may have been too much. These are probably the most accurate numbers anyone can get until the Holiday Break is over.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Administrator
Administrator
mbossio
Dec 23 2005, 10:24 PM
Okay Jimid.. I found an appropriate quote that opponents and propoents shoud find equally fitting.

War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~Bertrand Russell

"The outcome of the war is in our hands; the outcome of words is in the council."
Homer (800 BC - 700 BC), The Iliad
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
mp1031
Member Avatar
Principal
xyz-321
Dec 23 2005, 10:30 PM
c3hull
Dec 23 2005, 10:09 PM
xyz-321, can you provide your calculations so that we can all have to numbers straight once and for all. I've heard different #'s for the past few months and if you can post them in detail, we can all agree on the final #'s. Thanks!

Total district enrollment: 17,171 Source: November 14 Demographics Committee presentation
MSC Spots: 30 * 4 grades = 120
CAPA Spots: 90 * 4 grades = 360
MACAT Spots: 120 * 2 grades = 240
Webster: 242 / 2 = 121 I divided by two because there are two programs (ACAT and TMI) in the school. This is the best estimate I can provide.

Percent of students in MSC, CAPA, MACAT, and ACAT:
(120+360+240+121)/17171 = 4.9%

Percent of students in MSC, CAPA, MACAT, ACAT, and TMI:
(120+360+240+242)/17171 = 5.6%

It is important to note that these numbers are not necessarily accurate. Enrollment in these programs fluxuates. Some of the programs are also not up to capacity. In the numbers in my previous post I dropped .7% to account for that, but now I think that may have been too much. These are probably the most accurate numbers anyone can get until the Holiday Break is over.

From the Starring Capa website Starring CAPA:
The program is, however, stronger than ever with over 230 students in the three disciplines of theatre, voice and dance.

Also, MACAT is 60 students per grade, for a total of 120.

MSC does have 120 total spaces available, but typically does not graduate a total of 30 per year. Many students leave the program before graduation for a variety of reasons. There were roughly 18 in the graduating class of 2005.

From Webster Annual Report 2003-2004
The Webster Elementary School population of students represents 242 children
enrolled in the Alternative Classrooms for the Academically Talented (henceforth
called K - 6 program), and 116 children enrolled in the program serving students
who are trainable mentally impaired (henceforth called Primary/Intermediate
program).

So, (120 + 230 + 120 + 242) / 17171 = 4.1%
Including TMI: (120 + 230 + 120 + 242 + 116) / 17171 = 4.8%


XY Z - I would like to commend you on your mature, thoughtful posts. Earlier, I tried to post encouraging remarks for parents who were so upset about long bus rides and multiple transitions. I mentioned my children had transferred from their home schools to Webster (extra transition) and had "survived" the long bus rides, including transfers, since 4th, 2nd, and 1st grades, respectively. My posts were met with hostility and jeering, so I gave up, though I have continued to read the forum. Try not to let opponents of the LI bother you. I understand and sympathize with their plight - we all want the best education we can get for our children. (Think of a mother bear whose cubs are threatened... :blink: )
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Grant
Member Avatar
Principal
Its not just the bus rides....its that on top of other things that makes parents angy. This is not just an issue of bus rides.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Cindi
Member Avatar
Principal
And my point is that these programs that you are talking about do not include the majority of the district. Parents have chosen to send their children to these programs and have chosen to put them on the bus.

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
xyz-321
Member Avatar
Principal
xyz-321
Dec 23 2005, 09:29 PM
Hull_alumni
Dec 23 2005, 09:14 PM
Choosing acat macat msc or capa still boils down to the fact

Enrollment in any of those programs is a CHOICE!  Parents were well aware of the bus rides that would accompany enrollment in any of the above mentioned programs and opted for them knowing the length of bus rides.

the 5/6 schools are NOT a CHOICE,

the bus rides to the schools are NOT a CHOICE

Charter schools are a choice!

I seriously doubt most parents even gave the issue of long bus rides consideration when they sent their students to these schools. The educational value of these schools is worth to many parents more than anything you may consider a disadvantage.

Now consider charter schools. The majority of people here seem to think there will be enough students to create charter schools. My guess is that there will not be enough students to open many charter schools and your students will end up going a long distance to get to the one, two, or three charter schools that are created. That doesn't solve the problem of distance. Also this article from the New York Times suggests that charter schools may not be in the best educational intrests of your children.

I somewhat challenged that issue in this quoted post.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
xyz-321
Member Avatar
Principal
Grant
Dec 24 2005, 11:07 AM
Its  not just the bus rides....its that on top of other things that makes parents angy. This is not just an issue of  bus  rides.

Then I would like to hear more reasons and to keep disputing them!
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
bmom
Principal
xyz-321
Dec 24 2005, 11:48 AM
Grant
Dec 24 2005, 11:07 AM
Its  not just the bus rides....its that on top of other things that makes parents angy. This is not just an issue of  bus  rides.

Then I would like to hear more reasons and to keep disputing them!

Multiple transitions are one. You must realize that some of these children are going to have to make several transitions with this plan. The BOE and Demo Comm even admitted the negative effects of transitions. You are very fortunate to be a "gifted child". There are children who are just "average" or "just below average" and as the BOE and Demo Comm admitted, a child can experience academic loss due to transition. For the "average" or below, this can be very devastating to their academic career. They could lose 1 year of academic achievement for every transition. (please see the studies in topic of transitions on this site). That is why a charter or private school is appealing to some. The ACAT etc are great programs, but these children will most likely not ever be able to get in to those. The BOE and Demo Comm has not explained how they plan to address this issue with our children. Some children will do fine, but what about those who do not??? For some parents, private or charter school is an option because it eliminates multiple transitions. You have to realize some children cannot afford to take the chance of losing any academic achievement at all!!!!
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose
Principal
..
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
xyz-321
Member Avatar
Principal
bmom
Dec 24 2005, 12:01 PM
Multiple transitions are one.  You must realize that some of these children are going to have to make several transitions with this plan.  The BOE and Demo Comm even admitted the negative effects of transitions.  You are very fortunate to be a "gifted child".  There are children who are just "average" or "just below average" and as the BOE and Demo Comm admitted, a child can experience academic loss due to transition.  For the "average" or below, this can be very devastating to their academic career.  They could lose 1 year of academic achievement for every transition.  (please see the studies in topic of transitions on this site).  That is why a charter or private school is appealing to some.  The ACAT etc are great programs, but these children will most likely not ever be able to get in to those.  The BOE and Demo Comm has not explained how they plan to address this issue with our children.  Some children will do fine, but what about those who do not???  For some parents, private or charter school is an option because it eliminates multiple transitions.  You have to realize some children cannot afford to take the chance of losing any academic achievement at all!!!!

Regarding multiple transitions, I read Stephanie Wren's article "The Effect Of Grade Span Configuration and School to School Transition On Student Achievement" and found a couple things I think you may have overlooked. "Significant differences were observed between 1 school-to-school transition and 2 and 3 school-to-school transitions ... No significant differences existed between the 2 and 3 school-to-school transitions" (p. 10). In the discussion section of her paper, Wren also includes the following: "When these [variables, school-to-school transitions and grade configuration] are assessed independent of one another, the results express the same conclusion and that is the longer a student stays in a given school the better the student performs... Yet, when these variables are evaluated simultaneously the results are different. Only school-to-school transition is a significant predictor of student achievement when measured in conjunction with grade span conifguration" (p. 10-11).

Wren's research suggests that the best option would be to have two schools with only one transition. However, LPS simply cannot support that type of configuration (I hope we can agree on that :) ). However, Wren's research does not offer any substantial support to the claim that adding another transition will hurt students anymore than the current two transitions in LPS. Lastly, in Wren's results, the percent of students passing the MEAP in "transition 3 schools", or high schools, is higher than those passing the MEAP in "transition 2 schools", or middle schools. Perhaps it should be considered that adding another transition earlier in a students education will help students to become accustomed to the stress of a transition and help the students cope with the change to a high school when they get there (and when the grades really matter).

Lastly, bmom, you said "Some children will do fine, but what about those who do not???" No plan is perfect for every child. Some children will have problems with the Legacy Initiative, just as some students have problems with the current configuration of LPS. However, the Legacy Initiative will help students who prefer a more structured environment. I think that for the average student, the introduction of structure earlier in life is benifitial.

Rose @ Dec 24 2005
12:23 PM
Don't bother with this one. He's just a child, or that's what he keeps reminding us of.
I think most people here already know I am a child.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

xyz-321
Dec 24 2005, 02:00 PM
Wren's research suggests that the best option would be to have two schools with only one transition. However, LPS simply cannot support that type of configuration (I hope we can agree on that :) ).

LPS simply can son. I do appreciate your involvement and would be proud to have you as my child. But in the real business world, none of this would be excepted in this economic climate. LPS can do exactly what is best for the kids, but unfortunately many people would lose their jobs. We are basically using our credit card to pay for Christmas. I beg you to prove me wrong, because that would make a very Merry Christmas for all! Merry Christmas to all!!
Goto Top
 
Rose
Principal
..
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
xyz-321
Member Avatar
Principal
Hopefully you all had a cheerful and delightful Christmas.

Friday
Dec 24 2005, 02:14 PM
xyz-321
Dec 24 2005, 02:00 PM
Wren's research suggests that the best option would be to have two schools with only one transition. However, LPS simply cannot support that type of configuration (I hope we can agree on that :) ).

LPS simply can son. I do appreciate your involvement and would be proud to have you as my child. But in the real business world, none of this would be excepted in this economic climate. LPS can do exactly what is best for the kids, but unfortunately many people would lose their jobs. We are basically using our credit card to pay for Christmas. I beg you to prove me wrong, because that would make a very Merry Christmas for all! Merry Christmas to all!!
I'll agree that it is possible to have a two school / one transition system in place. However, I don't think that there is any practical way to do that.

First, consider a K-6 and 7-12 system. Each 'half' of the district would have 8586 students (based on an average of 1431 students per grade). If the current elementary system was to remain in place, the 7-12 students could go to the current middle and high schools. However, they could not be separated evenly. More 7-12 students would go to the current high schools and less to the middle schools. This would not be fair to those who got stuck in Emerson, Frost, Homles, or Riley as they would not have access to facilities that other students in Churchill, Franklin, and Stevenson would recieve. Another option with the K-6 and 7-12 system would be consolidate many of the elementary schools, just as the Legacy Initiative does, and spread the students that would have gone to Churchill, Franklin, and Stevenson among the closed elemantary schools, if that is possible. If that was done, the district would loose its three finest buildings (and don't forget the Carli Auditorium too!!!).

Second, consider a K-8 and 9-12 system. The current high schools could be kept as they are as they are designed for 9-12 education. When the Demographics Committee studied the K-5 plan, they found that "Parents don't like 6th graders in middle school." Drawing from this, I would think that many LPS parents would prefer to not have their first and second graders with teenagers. Additionally, when the school-to-school transition 'bump' occurs, despite not being as harmful as a second one which occurs in LPS today and in the Legacy Initiative's plan, it is later in the child's life and the child has had no experience with changing environments before. Also, during the 9-12 period is when school counts towards a child's GPA, one of the items a college/university looks at.

Other options could possibly be a K-4 and 5-12 model. However, I am at a loss as to how to fit in the 5-12 portion while still maintaining the opportunities of LPS today.

Simply put, a two school / one transition system is not practical with the current LPS building configuration.

Additionally, outsourcing doesn't solve the problem of delining enrollment and people will simply loose their jobs. However, as Friday puts it, it might be in the best intrests of kids. I think it is important to realize that LPS has a lot of things to balance. The Legacy Initiative seems to me to be an excellent plan. It (1) saves district money, (2) deals with the problem of declining enrollment for the next and subsequent school years, and (3) has no significant adverse side effects on the majority of the student body.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Livonia Neighbors Archive · Next Topic »
Locked Topic