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"Be Mine" Episode Discussion
Topic Started: Feb 12 2014, 08:22 PM (244 Views)
Nevermore
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The Magnificent Marvel
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Let's all have fun talking about Terra's return. Yay?
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Nevermore
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The Magnificent Marvel
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Ugh. So Ugh.

And am I the only one getting sick as hell of BB singing all the damn time? I know it's something Greg Cipes desperately wanted to do for whatever reason, but I am getting sick of it. It's like, he can't be on screen without a song. I'm over it. I'm so over it.
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Killer Moth
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Nevermore
Feb 13 2014, 01:32 PM
Ugh. So Ugh.

And am I the only one getting sick as hell of BB singing all the damn time? I know it's something Greg Cipes desperately wanted to do for whatever reason, but I am getting sick of it. It's like, he can't be on screen without a song. I'm over it. I'm so over it.
Since when are you channeling me about Cipes? XD

I don't know if it's because Cipes wants to -- I know he's a singer, so that's part of it -- and/or the GO producers think that's funny, and want more of it, or something. Anyone know?

Haven't seen the episode yet, so how bad is the Raven/Beast Boy lulz, if any? Spoil or prepare me accordingly?
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Nevermore
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The Magnificent Marvel
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Killer Moth
Feb 13 2014, 03:41 PM
Nevermore
Feb 13 2014, 01:32 PM
Ugh. So Ugh.

And am I the only one getting sick as hell of BB singing all the damn time? I know it's something Greg Cipes desperately wanted to do for whatever reason, but I am getting sick of it. It's like, he can't be on screen without a song. I'm over it. I'm so over it.
Since when are you channeling me about Cipes? XD

I don't know if it's because Cipes wants to -- I know he's a singer, so that's part of it -- and/or the GO producers think that's funny, and want more of it, or something. Anyone know?

Haven't seen the episode yet, so how bad is the Raven/Beast Boy lulz, if any? Spoil or prepare me accordingly?
Since I became so cynical apparently.

And no, he wanted to (At 1:40).
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Killer Moth
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Nevermore
Feb 13 2014, 04:53 PM
Killer Moth
Feb 13 2014, 03:41 PM
Nevermore
Feb 13 2014, 01:32 PM
Ugh. So Ugh.

And am I the only one getting sick as hell of BB singing all the damn time? I know it's something Greg Cipes desperately wanted to do for whatever reason, but I am getting sick of it. It's like, he can't be on screen without a song. I'm over it. I'm so over it.
Since when are you channeling me about Cipes? XD

I don't know if it's because Cipes wants to -- I know he's a singer, so that's part of it -- and/or the GO producers think that's funny, and want more of it, or something. Anyone know?

Haven't seen the episode yet, so how bad is the Raven/Beast Boy lulz, if any? Spoil or prepare me accordingly?
Since I became so cynical apparently.

And no, he wanted to (At 1:40).
Then, clearly, you need to stop hanging around with me. I'm a bad influence, y'know.

Saw the video, which makes me wonder, "is the reason GO!BB has become an asshat is because Cipes thinks that's funny?" I do think it's all on the writers, but after that video, I dunno...

But I did like Payton admitted that "yeah, Cy can be obnoxious, but so can I." ;)
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Severus Rage
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So are the VA's channeling their inner worst bits and bringing them out for total personality of their characters?
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Nevermore
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The Magnificent Marvel
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Severus Rage
Feb 14 2014, 02:11 AM
So are the VA's channeling their inner worst bits and bringing them out for total personality of their characters?
Sure seems like it. Raven is the only one who "feels" the same, but she is ruined in the same note, but that is writing, not acting. Even Starfire has regressed back to Season One... or pre-season one even...
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Killer Moth
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Nevermore
Feb 14 2014, 10:13 AM
Severus Rage
Feb 14 2014, 02:11 AM
So are the VA's channeling their inner worst bits and bringing them out for total personality of their characters?
Sure seems like it. Raven is the only one who "feels" the same, but she is ruined in the same note, but that is writing, not acting. Even Starfire has regressed back to Season One... or pre-season one even...
Right, I'm not sure how much influence Strong has on Raven, but, yes, I'd say it's writing. I'd love to know on whether Menville is happy on his character being the biggest jerkass on the show, when that clearly wasn't the case in 2003.

As for Starfire regressing, agreed, but I wouldn't even point to her 2003 Season One form (when she was at her most endearing). Season One Star still had a general grasp about Earth culture or can interact with characters without many problems, but specific cultural issues or idioms she had major difficulty with, as part of her archetype. (Basically, I'm saying she was functional enough, and then the later seasons gave her character development in learning those issues -- "Can I Keep Him?" deconstructed that masterfully.) GO!Starfire, conversely, doesn't even have that general grasp, and it makes her come off as as borderline foolish at times. But then, she is still the least jerkass Titan or the least annoying, so I'll have to take it.
Edited by Killer Moth, Feb 14 2014, 06:08 PM.
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Killer Moth
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Finally viewed the episode, so here's a few assessments:

Not a bad way to start an episode, featuring Terra nearly breaking under her confinement. A pity the series format doesn't allow for longer scenes, as I would like to see Terra crack under pressure, though, when BB and Raven spied on her, she must have gotten lessons on emoting from SatAM!Dr. Robotnik. "HATE! HATE HIM!"

And it is the first time I found GO!Robin/Starfire strangely adorable, which was a nice palate cleanser from the Terra/BB/Raven dynamic. Including the bit with the heart, which rather smacks of something Raven would do. (And, yes, it did amuse me, as I did a similar idea for a Transformers drabble I did, last year, so I admit my bias.) As for where she got that baby to play Cupid, dang if I know?

And the Cyborg/Jinx scene was cute, and I'm so glad Cyborg didn't do a "Don't Taze Me, Bro" joke.

Missed opportunity here, but when Terra got her funky gauntlets, wouldn't her Aftershock Apprentice suit have been more fitting? Especially with the "dump the Titans underground" bit she tried at the end?

Anyway, some aspects I did like, and others, I had to ignore to keep my sanity, including the love triangle and the singing. Now, most importantly, where the hell did the Titans get a walking boombox? Seriously, that thing was freaking me out.
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Nevermore
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Killer Moth
Feb 21 2014, 11:48 AM
And it is the first time I found GO!Robin/Starfire strangely adorable
I have to agree with this. It was almost like headcanon thinking back to Sisters. They were cute together in the opening, they really were and this is like, the way fans would squee over them. I almost could get behind the pairing here. Almost.
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Killer Moth
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Nevermore
Feb 21 2014, 12:20 PM
Killer Moth
Feb 21 2014, 11:48 AM
And it is the first time I found GO!Robin/Starfire strangely adorable
I have to agree with this. It was almost like headcanon thinking back to Sisters. They were cute together in the opening, they really were and this is like, the way fans would squee over them. I almost could get behind the pairing here. Almost.
Indeed. It doesn't hurt or help that it's a palate cleanser to Raven and her off/on thing with Beast Boy, and how I don't care for either. I know I should feel sad that Raven failed to tell BB yet again her feelings in this, yet should I care? Sooner or later, he's going to give up and move on, as he's more willing with Terra. (Which, yes, was funny, because Terra was "no sell" for a while.) GO writers, if you want to create actual romantic drama to tug at the audience with your endings, make the pairing and the characters involved likable. Even 2003 Beast Boy/Raven had that.

Or GO!Robin/Starfire doesn't have this cynicism, with like Raven's "oh, I'm not interested" shtick, which works and BB not lazy or not caring to get the message. Or I'll say it: maybe it's Raven, since we all know GO!BB's flaws. I don't know what her motivation is. Prior versions, I either pitied her, like in Comic Canon -- poor girl really went through the ringer -- or liked her in the 2003 animated version, despite the fact she had an annoying snark addiction, to the point of hurting people's feelings if applied realistically, and was probably too standoffish for her own good, but her heart was clearly in the right place. GO-wise, why is she here? Half of it seems she wants to roll her eyes and snark at her teammates for her own amusement (not quite at the level where she wants to prove her own superiority, but we're getting there), and the other half because she seems bored with everything. Everyone else, I can get why they're around (Robin needs to prove his leadership cred, Cy and BB are BFFs and Star loves everyone), but not GO!Raven. Unless I'm missing something?

I had this feeling for a while, but it's finally crystallizing why I like this version of Raven least of all and increasingly so, by the day.
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Nevermore
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Killer Moth
Feb 21 2014, 12:58 PM
Indeed. It doesn't hurt or help that it's a palate cleanser to Raven and her off/on thing with Beast Boy, and how I don't care for either. I know I should feel sad that Raven failed to tell BB yet again her feelings in this, yet should I care? Sooner or later, he's going to give up and move on, as he's more willing with Terra. (Which, yes, was funny, because Terra was "no sell" for a while.) GO writers, if you want to create actual romantic drama to tug at the audience with your endings, make the pairing and the characters involved likable. Even 2003 Beast Boy/Raven had that.

Or GO!Robin/Starfire doesn't have this cynicism, with like Raven's "oh, I'm not interested" shtick, which works and BB not lazy or not caring to get the message. Or I'll say it: maybe it's Raven, since we all know GO!BB's flaws. I don't know what her motivation is. Prior versions, I either pitied her, like in Comic Canon -- poor girl really went through the ringer -- or liked her in the 2003 animated version, despite the fact she had an annoying snark addiction, to the point of hurting people's feelings if applied realistically, and was probably too standoffish for her own good, but her heart was clearly in the right place. GO-wise, why is she here? Half of it seems she wants to roll her eyes and snark at her teammates for her own amusement (not quite at the level where she wants to prove her own superiority, but we're getting there), and the other half because she seems bored with everything. Everyone else, I can get why they're around (Robin needs to prove his leadership cred, Cy and BB are BFFs and Star loves everyone), but not GO!Raven. Unless I'm missing something?

I had this feeling for a while, but it's finally crystallizing why I like this version of Raven least of all and increasingly so, by the day.
I guess they feel that with the short episodes, true character development is a moot point.

But I can agree with what you said about Raven and her lack of motivations. There is a line said by Alexandria in the Josie and the Pussycats movie,
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I'm here because I was in the comic book.

and it just fits this situation so well. It's like, Raven is there just because she was there in the 2003 series. She doesn't stay in character, she isn't developed, she is just a pointless character in the background that is thrust forward to be a handy plot device in certain episodes. Sure, Star loves everyone, but she is basically useless as well. This is really a boys show, a man's world, and they are ruining the female characters in the process. I keep thinking: "Oh I can't wait for a real episode with my Aqualad, or for Red X and my Control Freaky to appear! And where the hell is Slade and his musical number?" but honestly, I would rather them not show up at all. Red X doesn't work in the Go! world. Aqualad is too serious so he will be messed up, and while Control Freak is honestly perfect, they will just be too hard on him and make me cry.

This show is ruining characters for potty humor and jerkiness. I really can't understand why it is as popular as it is. My little cousin likes it better than the old series, but I think she is too young to really get the 2003 series. Her older brother thinks she is insane. But babygirl is the only one I know who legit likes this series all the time. It has it's moments, I'll give it that, but I still feel like every episode ruins the credibility of these characters more. Yes, YJ was "too serious" but that is what the fan's thought they wanted. They wanted a BTAS but with the Titans and they got something that would've been better not for all the dicking around CN did and the writer's losing their steam with it. Go! didn't replace it, but it wasn't the answer to the problem either.
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Killer Moth
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Right, it really does, plus she's a core member. In Comic Canon, she's why the New Teen Titans formed in the first place (though, she wasn't quite upfront about her reasons until later), so she has to be there. And yet, as you said, she's just "there" in GO. But I can live with that, if she was likable in some way, but then she was always distant with the Titans in Comic Canon (not as much as you'd think in 2003 Animated, but enough, obviously), but that's giving the writers a little too much credit. Even though, they can do their comic canon homework. That could be it, her being so distant, but the reasons are different here. Comic Canon, it was because she feared Trigon taking over her, and the Titans, for their part, had other personal issues to deal with and they somewhat feared her (for good reason). GO, not so much.

I don't disagree how it's hurting the female characters in the long run, too, but there's still a double standard as they're spared being as flawed or dysfunctional as the males. Which is part of the times we're in, as you can't have flawed characters of identity group X or Y. Or the GO writers just think screwed-up males are more funny, who knows?

(Weirdly, Aqualad can be funny, but it has to be done right or with nuance: or why his "Fish Taco" rant in Titans East was beyond funny. I don't think the GO writers have the slightest idea what "nuance" means.)

Quote:
 
Yes, YJ was "too serious" but that is what the fan's thought they wanted. They wanted a BTAS but with the Titans and they got something that would've been better not for all the dicking around CN did and the writer's losing their steam with it. Go! didn't replace it, but it wasn't the answer to the problem either.


I can't argue with that, but since Comic Canon Titans really is that way, YJ was just taking things to the obvious conclusion. On the other hand, even the Comic Canon Titans were likable and semi-functional, the YJ Animated ones, not so much.
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Nevermore
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Well, I still haven't seen Season 2 of YJ, so I am shocked I have as much a handle on it as I do. I like it, don't get me wrong, what I have seen anyway, but it lacks the charm of the 2003 series for sure.

And comic Raven made sense. With 2003 Animated Raven, at first I chocked it up to the writers not knowing how to write her character in a way that would make her welcomed as a member and not offend any of the goth groups and such (which they couldn't really do anyway, because goths are total laid back with stuff. It's the emo crowd you have to worry about really). Then as they started figuring it out, I think they decided that the best way to take her would be to make her socially awkward. Yes, she should feel comfortable with the Titans, but her emotions controlling her powers, hiding from Trigon, she needed to stay distanced. She didn't know how to find balance. It wasn't one of those things I noticed in the moment, but when I marathoned the series it suddenly made sense.

Go!Raven, they aren't even trying with. She is a snarky b***h and nothing more. They are bringing in too much fanservice, and it's not even for Raven... they are doing it all for Tara Strong. People are so into her now, so Raven doesn't work as Raven anymore. She has to be a popculture device for showing off that they have Tara Strong on their show. Which, awesome, power to her, but I am seeing way too much of Twilight Sparkle.. only like, a super jerky Twilight Sparkle when all I want is Raven.
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Killer Moth
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Feb 21 2014, 02:31 PM
Well, I still haven't seen Season 2 of YJ, so I am shocked I have as much a handle on it as I do. I like it, don't get me wrong, what I have seen anyway, but it lacks the charm of the 2003 series for sure.

And comic Raven made sense. With 2003 Animated Raven, at first I chocked it up to the writers not knowing how to write her character in a way that would make her welcomed as a member and not offend any of the goth groups and such (which they couldn't really do anyway, because goths are total laid back with stuff. It's the emo crowd you have to worry about really). Then as they started figuring it out, I think they decided that the best way to take her would be to make her socially awkward. Yes, she should feel comfortable with the Titans, but her emotions controlling her powers, hiding from Trigon, she needed to stay distanced. She didn't know how to find balance. It wasn't one of those things I noticed in the moment, but when I marathoned the series it suddenly made sense.

Go!Raven, they aren't even trying with. She is a snarky b***h and nothing more. They are bringing in too much fanservice, and it's not even for Raven... they are doing it all for Tara Strong. People are so into her now, so Raven doesn't work as Raven anymore. She has to be a popculture device for showing off that they have Tara Strong on their show. Which, awesome, power to her, but I am seeing way too much of Twilight Sparkle.. only like, a super jerky Twilight Sparkle when all I want is Raven.
You'll hate Season 2 for what happened with Nightwing. That's all I'll say.

2003 Animated Raven was a revamp from the ground-up, and I had similar assessments to yours, "what are they doing with her?" It's really difficult to write an emotionless character, even though, she has good reason to, plus the goth stereotype (which shouldn't have been an issue, as frankly, Raven's more Ally Sheedy's weird character from the official Breakfast Club template -- goth was just popular at the time, so the writers tried to go with that). Secondly, Animated Raven was very much a hero, while her Comic Canon self was originally an anti-hero, plus the animated series really downplayed Trigon in the beginning. (It was a blessing ultimately, as Raven fearing Trigon would be unleashed in Comic Canon was almost a sick running gag, vs. the handful of times prior to Season 4.) And Season 1, the writers admitted to what you'd call "pantsing" writing, compared to much later. What was more or less surprising was her latent sarcasm fetish or the writers exaggerated that to her default characterization. (And I won't go into Season 5's "Go" attempt to reverse-engineer her character and failing to do so. That's another time.)

The distance made sense, but the Comic Canon naturally made things darker, and the Comic Canon Titans frankly didn't know what to do with her (nor can I blame them). They tried, but when you get shut down constantly, you're stuck. That's the hidden lesson in Spellbound: Raven intentionally shut out her friends, which could have saved some pain later on if she were upfront about things. (Plus, while that would have been fine in Season 1 or even 2, as she was getting to know her teammates, not so much in 3.) But, as you said, balance was key, I won't say the writers always knew what they were doing, but then, compared to Bruce Timm or Greg Weisman's writers, the angst factor would have been amplified by 100 had the latter two and their writer teams done it. (Both because of adherence to Comic Canon, and it's their style, though, Timm's fare is considerably less depressing.) And because of her legitimate angst (as you or I would if we had Comic Raven's lot in life), she can be occasionally a chore to read in the 80's era.

Anyway, as for GO!Raven, snarky b***h sums her up well, and glad you said it and not me. As for the fanservice, you raise one point I didn't foresee: the fanservice due to Tara Strong, herself. I'm definitely not into the audio erotica with Strong -- and, yes, I know she is comely, but I don't have those funny feelings about her -- but fans and friends tell me this extensively, so it makes sense to a degree. Which is weird, as the art style doesn't mesh with sexy -- we don't need to get into all the porn made on 2003 Animated Raven, do we -- at all, but whatever.

As for the Twilight Sparkle archetype, I need to see more MLP to make that connection, but I'll take your word for it. Especially with the Pony references with this version of Raven, and "super jerky Twilight Sparkle" isn't a bad description in the least.
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