Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome!
Please read the updated rules before jumping into any conversations. Don't forget to introduce yourself so members old and new can meet you.
We look forward to chatting with you!
Newest News
Please take the Viewing Habits poll so that creation of the new board layouts will be easier. Thank you!
Welcome to Forbidden Love. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
  • Pages:
  • 1
Wonder Bra; Diana's image to the fans
Topic Started: Dec 9 2005, 04:28 PM (328 Views)
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
One of the issues of debate for one of DC's top characters, is Wonder Woman, originally created by William Mouston to be a strong female character but in the 50's, Fredric Wertham, in his book, the Seduction of the Innocent pointed out how the context of her stories involve bondage and then as she evolved, she became more of a sexual driven character during the years. One of masturbation with the fanboys almost (and in the series as well, given Superman's one time sexual attraction to her in the 80's).

Such an image rather undermines her belated purpose, as a female version of Superman with her strength in both form and function. Do you see Wonder Woman as that or see her fanbase like that? Should her image and look change to give her more legitimacy or remain the same?

It's a pity such a character, dissolved and undermined by her own fanbase. If only fans could get their minds out of the gutter.
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Field
Member Avatar
Meta-Human
[ *  *  *  * ]
The oppertunity was waaaaaaay too seductive. I don't know much about her comic history or anything, but that costume has to go.

(To be REPLACED with something with more surface area, not to just GO. Augh.)

At least give the lady some pants. A character who's so strong mentally deserves to retain a bit of dignity. Sheesh! It's really horrid, in my opinion. Really makes our comic industry look bad. <_<
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Field
Dec 10 2005, 01:08 PM
The oppertunity was waaaaaaay too seductive. I don't know much about her comic history or anything, but that costume has to go.

(To be REPLACED with something with more surface area, not to just GO. Augh.)

At least give the lady some pants. A character who's so strong mentally deserves to retain a bit of dignity. Sheesh! It's really horrid, in my opinion. Really makes our comic industry look bad. <_<

In the Golden Age, she did wear a flag star type skirt, it did look good on her and then they moved to the panties style in the Silver Age and the question of "Can you even do that to the flag?" bears to mind.

Personally, while the male part of me like the current look but yes, the mental part of me, which is a lot, screams "NO" to it.

But yeah, or some kind of leggings for body armor.

Incidentally, yes, the male factor of the comic industry is quite annoying at times and this is one of those times but the issue then turns, "She's a female character, so why aren't the feminists and all pro female lobbies in uproar about this?"

We're in hyper sensative times now, surely someone has wanted to challenge this.


Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Field
Member Avatar
Meta-Human
[ *  *  *  * ]
Although, in a legal sense, it would be darn hard to change it, no standing, "Don't like it don't buy it, ladies." But then again, Wonder Woman is a bit of an icon, doesn't the country have the choice of denouncing such... abuse, I guess?

I really like her as a character, but I feel almost ashamed to support her around anybody, because of the stupid costume. And you're right about the flag thing, it seems disrespectful, but then you can burn them, too... *dies* I don't know.

But something has to be done.

*puts whoever changed the costume on The List*
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think with the media getting so anti American, trying to fight an American mocking character might be harder in that of trying to get exposure for such a cause because of their bias. But legally, it might be hard but I don't think impossible. Flag burning is illegal, y'know. Maybe we can use that.

Sad part with her, is that she's an icon, meaning there are no DC female alternatives to her in that glorifed image. Hawkgirl is good but she isn't as popular, you need an icon to counter an icon. Like Batman is a counter to Supes.

Question is, who could be up to it? The DCU has strong females, closest is Batgirl but even she isn't up there with Diana, popularity wise.


Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Field
Member Avatar
Meta-Human
[ *  *  *  * ]
Could be that Batgirl there's been three of them, WW is solid, even if there was some mess with Troia or whatnot...? Don't know much about that, but there is no Wonder Woman II, and I think that makes a difference.

That may be true, but here in our own little dichotomic world, she still isn't used much as an American symbol... guess they haven't thought of it yet. One of these days I'm going to write them a real scathing letter about her uniform-that-isn't-there, though. :angry:

(On flag burning, I thought there was that lawsuit, wossname vs. Texas, where it's a form of speech? Or has that been overruled? The ninnies...)
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I forgot about the mulitple identity thing, a pain in comics but more DC if anything. Good point. Troia is a sidekick and kinda emulates WW but she isn't in WW's boots (can't be as she's in another dimension currently). You bring up a good point, it doesn't matter who is in the current costume, the icon is made by one who made the most impression. In Robin's case, while the other three are noteworthy, it's Dick Grayson's role in it that is makes him an icon, he like Diana, has the luxury of making such a strong first impression. On the opposite side of things, Wally West and Hal Jordan are icons, despite being third, and second of their identities respectively (not sure on Hal though).

So it depends on if DC can make a stronger version than Diana but given their current state of affairs of characterization, that's out.

And no, she isn't an Americanization icon and that's the sad part, she should, but then DC while has great characters, they do miss the potential and that's the real shame.

(And you should write that letter and unless I'm off, flag burning is still illegal but I'll look that up anyway. You may be right, ninnies indeed.)
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Crow
Member Avatar
Spaceman Spiff
[ *  *  *  * ]
Personally, I don't have a problem with her outfit. It makes sense in that it allows her a lot of freedom to move, and her Amazon background means she wouldn't be all that self-conscious about it.

Also, I think her strong character is what helps her pull a look like that off. She can walk around like that with a lot of skin showing, because she's not trying to attract guys, she's trying to fight evil and whatnot. Her superstrength is enough to keep lecherous fanboys off her, I would think.

If the fanbase really cared about her, the costume wouldn't matter. Do I think DC CATERS a bit to the fanbase by keeping the look? Not sure--I don't think they're all that broken up about making more money off of it, but I also think they're just a little wary of changing it. I for one would be a bit resistant to any changes made. I think she looks fine the way she is--after all, she's just a drawing.
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Crow
Dec 10 2005, 09:03 PM
If the fanbase really cared about her, the costume wouldn't matter. Do I think DC CATERS a bit to the fanbase by keeping the look? Not sure--I don't think they're all that broken up about making more money off of it, but I also think they're just a little wary of changing it. I for one would be a bit resistant to any changes made. I think she looks fine the way she is--after all, she's just a drawing.

It's not how she feels, it's more how people outside the masturbtory fanbase see her as legitimate or not. It's those I want to address as such. Would they flock to her dressed like that, exploiting the male side of the sex like that? It's more DC but yeah, I do believe they'd be up in arms if that was changed for any reason as it's a profitable venture, albeit cheap and cheesy.

Of course if she is so profitable like the others, why does DC keep screwing around with her titles up and down? ;)

And I agree about the last line, it's just observation on everyone else's view on it than in the comics itselves.
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Crow
Member Avatar
Spaceman Spiff
[ *  *  *  * ]
I think it's less about the costume, and more about her actual figure.

For example: People do not generally see gymnasts and dancers as sex symbols, but rather highly respectable figures due to the amount of work they put into their careers. No one is outraged when one of them cavorts about in a leotard or swimsuit, or in some modern dance routines, nothing but their underwear. This is probably because the body type most-often seen in people of such professions is slim and flexible, rather than large-breasted and long-legged, etc. In any costume, Wonder Woman would be "sexy" simply because...she is.

Another Example: Catwoman. No one is up in arms about Catwoman cavorting about in leather, or Batgirl, or any of the other DC female superheroes. I mean, if you really look at them, the body-type is all similar. They're all curvy and well-built, though better proportioned these days than they used to be. The amount of actual flesh seen really shouldn't matter if they all cavort about in skin-tight clothing anyway.

I still say the problem is the fanboys themselves. If people can't handle seeing a beautiful woman dressed that way, then there's something wrong with THEM. Wonder Woman doesn't use her costume to GET sex, or go around using her sexiness to win fights, and THAT is why she's still a strong female character. She gets by the same way the guys get by--with their powers, not their looks.

As an artist, and someone who studies anatomy as part of my classes...I guess I just can't understand society's problem with any hint of nudity or sexuality. *needs to move to Europe*
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Fair enough and you make a good point with Catwoman and Batgirl but those two are different because they are not drenched in the American flag or strong ties to the American symbolism, it's the usage of the symbolism here that I question here (and more to the point, DC's failure to see this). Although truthfully, yes, Diana's character does override the exploitation nature of her costume, a saving grace if anything.

Either way, yes, the issue with both the fanbase and DC, not with the character, although it would be funny if she broke the fourth wall as it were.

"I'm wearing panties because of WHAT?!"
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Crow
Member Avatar
Spaceman Spiff
[ *  *  *  * ]
I think they do see her as an American symbol with the costume, and that they keep the costume BECAUSE of the symbolism--because they haven't really noticed that scantily clad woman wearing American colors is a bit...inappropriate. I like the costume the way it is, but it does bother me with the odd self-defeating standard in our society that sex is taboo and yet everyone wants to see it anyway--BECAUSE IT'S TABOO, ohmygod, whocouldathunkit?

Actually, taken that way...it IS a pretty good symbol of our society. Even if it's not a very favorable one. :doom:

I actually think there's a bit of a double standard there...women can't run around in comics with barely anything on, but guys can? I'm not saying that all of them DO, just that a lot of them run around in tights and spandex and loin-cloths, but no one's said "Hey, that guy needs some pants. Real ones."

I would rather see a woman's shoulders and legs than ANY man in short-shorts. *stabs out eyes*

Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Field
Member Avatar
Meta-Human
[ *  *  *  * ]
It just seems silly... and impractical. Certainly there've been JL episodes in very cold places, can't she put on some pants? :huh:

I'd love a less form-fitting costume, if only so all the live-action movies they TRY to make might actually WORK.

*braindeath*
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Killer Moth
Member Avatar
H.I.V.E. Headmaster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Field
Dec 23 2005, 04:18 PM
It just seems silly... and impractical. Certainly there've been JL episodes in very cold places, can't she put on some pants? :huh:

Actually the most recent episode of JLU had her in Iceland, even diving underwater, while not freezing at all. I guess they're playing up on the recent "She's made of clay" issue of that but it's never stated or implied outright.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with you, Crow about the double standard with women but as an American icon, shouldn't there be a higher litmus test for that, for again, she had a skirt in the Golden Age? Less lust driven but yeah, it's weirder and weirder than it used to be in the 40's-50's.

I blame the hippies for this, heh.
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
Crow
Member Avatar
Spaceman Spiff
[ *  *  *  * ]
I agree about the cold/pants bit. Part of the reason I accepted the costume before was that a leotard/swimsuit like design was practical when it came to movement, but she does need more protection. The trick of deflecting bullets with her armbands is nifty, but she ISN'T Superman, so she does need something that fits well AND keeps her safe/warm.

As a symbol--yes, she shouldn't be undermined so much by the fanbase, and she should be more decently dressed so as not to appeal to the worst in people.

And, as a character/woman, it shouldn't matter how she dresses, just how she acts.

*is done arguing now* :doom: It's so weird to be disagreeing with you two. x_0
Offline  photo rebirth_profile.png  photo rebirth_top.png
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
Learn More · Sign-up for Free
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · DC Universe · Next Topic »
  • Pages:
  • 1